Haskell or Travers

[cj]

Originally Posted by highnote

AP ran 2:26 for 12 furlongs at Belmont.

Is he one of the fastest to ever run at Belmont or was the track souped up and not deep, dry sand?

He is fantastic horse. How he compares to 1973, I have no idea. Nobody else really does either, they just think they do.

[nijinski]

Originally Posted by highnote

AP ran 2:26 for 12 furlongs at Belmont.

Is he one of the fastest to ever run at Belmont or was the track souped up and not deep, dry sand?

Belmont Stakes contenders to gallop on track primed to curb career-ending injuries

Updated May 30, 2015 7:04 PM
By ROBIN TOPPING robin.topping@newsday.com

 0 Reprints  + -





May 30 Newsday article

[highnote]

Originally Posted by cj

He is fantastic horse. How he compares to 1973, I have no idea. Nobody else really does either, they just think they do.

I wasn't comparing him to 1973. I believe there have been several horses that ran in the 2:26 range at Belmont.

I just don't get how you can say the tracks are getting deeper and you compare this to a sprinter like Usain Bolt not being able to break records on a deep track so we shouldn't expect thoroughbreds to. But on the other hand, thoroughbred sprint records are being broken and AP ran one of the fastest 12f times at Belmont on a track that is supposedly deeper now than it was in 1973.

I'm just trying to reconcile AP's fast 12f time over a deep track with the fact that we shouldn't expect record times (and I presume fast times) on today's deeper tracks.

A bettor would want to know if speed figures are accurately measuring performance. Measuring track speed seems like it would be important to make accurate figures.

The consensus seems to be that Belmont was souped up, but this is inconsistent with what you seem to be saying.

So I'm trying to determine what the truth is. Maybe there are more truths than one because of the way people measure these things?

[raybo]

Originally Posted by cj

You threw me with TC hopeful. I guess he was, just didn't think of him.

Parx...I'm sure he could break track records at many lower level tracks if he ran there. I honestly don't pay attention to that stuff so I was being sincere when I asked. I gave that race a 124, lower than his Woody Stephens, Haskell and BC Classic wins, all 128 or 129.

I understand, but what I meant by AP having to break some track records in order for me to rate him in, say, the top 5 all time, was not intended to mean just at large tracks, but rather ANY tracks. He has no records at all while Secretariat for instance (and I'm certainly not willing to compare AP to him at all, even if he happens to break a track record or so in the next 6 months or however long he continues to run), set 5 track records and tied another, and one of his track records was set in a turf race (3 of his records still stand today). He raced 21 times in 19 months while having physical problems at least twice during his 3 yo campaign, that I recall. He won 5 races as a 2 yo and was DQed in a 6th race, for bumping the eventual winner. He won 9 races as a 3 yo old with 2 seconds and 1 third.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by nads1420

Do you guys think American Pharoah will go to the Haskell or Travers next?

I think the Haskell.

This is a good question, but I think the Jim Dandy should be included because the Haskell or the Jim Dandy would be a prep for Travers.

However my vote is for the Travers because of its possible historic impact of a horse winning all 4 major 3yo stake races in one year.

[nads1420]

Originally Posted by Cratos

This is a good question, but I think the Jim Dandy should be included because the Haskell or the Jim Dandy would be a prep for Travers.

However my vote is for the Travers because of its possible historic impact of a horse winning all 4 major 3yo stake races in one year.

The Haskell is a major 3yo race

[cj]

Originally Posted by highnote

I wasn't comparing him to 1973. I believe there have been several horses that ran in the 2:26 range at Belmont.

I just don't get how you can say the tracks are getting deeper and you compare this to a sprinter like Usain Bolt not being able to break records on a deep track so we shouldn't expect thoroughbreds to. But on the other hand, thoroughbred sprint records are being broken and AP ran one of the fastest 12f times at Belmont on a track that is supposedly deeper now than it was in 1973.

I'm just trying to reconcile AP's fast 12f time over a deep track with the fact that we shouldn't expect record times (and I presume fast times) on today's deeper tracks.

A bettor would want to know if speed figures are accurately measuring performance. Measuring track speed seems like it would be important to make accurate figures.

The consensus seems to be that Belmont was souped up, but this is inconsistent with what you seem to be saying.

So I'm trying to determine what the truth is. Maybe there are more truths than one because of the way people measure these things?

Have you read the links on the Thorograph site? It is a good read, whether you agree or not with the conclusions. The site appears down right now or I'd post the links.

[nijinski]

Originally Posted by Cratos

This is a good question, but I think the Jim Dandy should be included because the Haskell or the Jim Dandy would be a prep for Travers.

However my vote is for the Travers because of its possible historic impact of a horse winning all 4 major 3yo stake races in one year.

I'm hearing now that the Jim Dandy has been added to the choices .

[Grits]

http://www.nbcsports.com/horse-racin...nbcnews%3Atext

Again, the ultimate goal is the Classic.

Now that he's got a Triple Crown winner in his barn, Baffert is feeling greater pressure to get American Pharoah's racing future right.

"I feel I owe it to the horse to pick the right spot for him to get him ready," he said. "I don't want to embarrass him. I'm not going to embarrass him because somebody made some offer or whatever."

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Grits

http://www.nbcsports.com/horse-racin...nbcnews%3Atext

Again, the ultimate goal is the Classic.

Exactly what I was getting at in my earlier post, AP will determine when AP runs, and when and if he runs before the BCC, it/they will be when he is ready and it/they will be preps for the BCC. Someone mentioned that AP could run more than 2 races before the BCC, and there is a slight possibility of that, but only if the horse will profit from running those races (and not just monetarily, but profit from the conditioning he will receive towards the BCC finale). IMO, the only thing that AP has left to accomplish in his career is "The Championship" race. That will be his swan song and will absolutely secure his legacy, in all aspects. Also, IMO, a track record "somewhere" and a BCC win, will place him solidly 2nd, behind Secretariat on the list of best horses, all time.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by cj

Have you read the links on the Thorograph site? It is a good read, whether you agree or not with the conclusions. The site appears down right now or I'd post the links.

I read the links, but need to read again. The one thing I remember is a drawing of the track surface.

[Grits]

Pending AP's moving forward and good health in coming days, on last night's NBCSN telecast....in the interview with the Zayat family, the Haskell sounds like their choice. They were pressed for an answer. This was the first time I've heard Mrs.Zayat speak. ...It was really nice for a change from the father/son.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by nads1420

The Haskell is a major 3yo race

It is a major 3yo race, but it doesn't have the historic significance as the Travers

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by Grits

Pending AP's moving forward and good health in coming days, on last night's NBCSN telecast....in the interview with the Zayat family, the Haskell sounds like their choice. They were pressed for an answer. This was the first time I've heard Mrs.Zayat speak. ...It was really nice for a change from the father/son.

Grits, while I think it will be the Travers, the Haskell would be the better prep race at a 1-1/8m distance.

However if I owned AP it would be the turf; I would want him to complete his resume.

[Tom]

Sure sounds like the Haskell after last night's interview.