The Belmont Winning Time

[RXB]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Maybe so, but Coach Inge, a previous optional claimer, ran almost as good a race also on the pace and with unheard of first and last quarters under 24 seconds but I don't hear anyone suggesting he is anything special.

Coach Inge is a mature horse and he worked a lot harder to run half-second slower than the June 3YO, plus Coach Inge's fractions were a little slower.

Charismatic was an ex-claimer. Lava Man was an ex-claimer. John Henry was an ex-claimer. I could go on. It's what they are now, not what they were that matters.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by RXB

...So he's rating AP 34 points below Secretariat. The track records at Belmont fell like flies in an insecticide factory in 1973 and the surface was quick on Belmont Stakes day. Yet the difference in raw times for AP and Secretariat on Beyer's own charts are worth about half of that 34-point differential. No way the track was two seconds faster yesterday. I doubt that it was faster at all...

Yes, it was pretty close to that. 2nd fastest Phipps, 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years, 5th fastest Woody Stephens in it's 30-year history, 6th fastest Brooklyn at 12f. The three routes on the list were all between 1.4 and 2.2 seconds faster than their recent historical averages.

[alf1380]

In this thread I learned:

- That somebody doesn't have Zenyatta in his personal Top 20 Mares list.
- That Coach Inge's performance was more "impressive" than AP's.
- That AP is nowhere near Ghostzapper's level...why? Well, because a poster felt like bringing up Ghostzapper.

Horse Players are a funny bunch.

These are Facts:

-There are now 12 TC winners.
-AP is one of them.
-He ran a game K. Derby, Smoked the Preakness Field, and put up a time (In the Belmont S.) comparable to the very best 3yo's to ever run in the race.
-He won in wire to wire fashion with a much better time than Citation. A Better time than Point Given, and a better time than Affirmed. 6th best in the history of the Belmont stakes.

Now, if you guys don't mind, I am driving down to Hialeah to go spit and curse at the Citation statue.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by RXB

Coach Inge is a mature horse and he worked a lot harder to run half-second slower than the June 3YO, plus Coach Inge's fractions were a little slower.

Charismatic was an ex-claimer. Lava Man was an ex-claimer. John Henry was an ex-claimer. I could go on. It's what they are now, not what they were that matters.

It is an exercise in futility RXB.

For some, the past will always be greater than the current or the future. And for some, they just can't enjoy the present for whatever reason and feel the need to be critical of greatness to somehow prove their knowledge and superiority over others, or that they have higher standards than everybody else. It is quite an interesting conundrum.

[Secondbest]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

It is an exercise in futility RXB.

For some, the past will always be greater than the current or the future. And for some, they just can't enjoy the present for whatever reason and feel the need to be critical of greatness to somehow prove their knowledge and superiority over others, or that they have higher standards than everybody else. It is quite an interesting conundrum.

Well said

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

He runs one of the fastest final times in Belmont Stakes history, actually gets FASTER as the race goes longer, and still there are people who are claiming this horse is "dressed up."

Friggin' hilarious...

You just can't please some horseplayers. All his TC races were outstanding in my opinion. He won the Derby despite a wide trip around both turns. In the Preakness he took the lead in fast fractions, fractured the competition, and won with ridiculous ease. The key to me was he did so much damage to the other horses that Tale of Verve (VH1 Documentary horse) clunked up for 2nd.

And the Belmont, what can you say? Frosted moved to a length from him in the stretch, and he simply found another gear and pulled away.

Myself, I'm just going to appreciate his greatness. Maybe he'll win the BC Classic and create a horse racing Grand Slam.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Maybe so, but Coach Inge, a previous optional claimer, ran almost as good a race also on the pace and with unheard of first and last quarters under 24 seconds but I don't hear anyone suggesting he is anything special.

He is a very good horse right now. He made a big jump on my numbers in his last race while winning by 12, and backed it up yesterday when stepped up in class and fighting off a Travers winner.

[cj]

Triple Crown races top 3 TimeformUS Speed Figures, dating back to the 2004 season:

Kentucky Derby

American Pharoah 127
Barbaro 125
Animal Kingdom 124

Preakness

I'll Have Another 130
Rachel Alexandra 128
Bernardini 127

Belmont

American Pharoah 128
Birdstone 123
Union Rags 121

[ArlJim78]

did I see a post or tweet cj that Frosted's Belmont figure was better than the last six winners of that race?

I think Frosted is getting a little overlooked. He's a really nice horse that came along on the wrong year.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

did I see a post or tweet cj that Frosted's Belmont figure was better than the last six winners of that race?

I think Frosted is getting a little overlooked. He's a really nice horse that came along on the wrong year.

That sounds right to me.

[ArlJim78]

Think about that, Frosted ran a race that in theory at least could have won the last six Belmonts, yet when he went into all out pursuit of AP he was repelled with disdainful ease.

[tophatmert]

AP carried 9 lbs. more than Coach Inge didn't he?

[RXB]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

It is an exercise in futility RXB.

For some, the past will always be greater than the current or the future. And for some, they just can't enjoy the present for whatever reason and feel the need to be critical of greatness to somehow prove their knowledge and superiority over others, or that they have higher standards than everybody else. It is quite an interesting conundrum.

Steve's entitled to his opinion. My opinion is that he's probably somewhat underrating American Pharoah but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right and he's wrong, even though of course I like to think that the data supports my view. It's still only my opinion and there'd be plenty of digits in whatever numeral accurately expresses the number of incorrect opinions that I've had in my life.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by tophatmert

AP carried 9 lbs. more than Coach Inge didn't he?

correct.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by cj

He is a very good horse right now. He made a big jump on my numbers in his last race while winning by 12, and backed it up yesterday when stepped up in class and fighting off a Travers winner.

By my figures he ran a BSF equivalent of 98 in that optional claimer. I know he's not on the Beyer leader board at DRF which bottoms out at 105. The Travers winner was 5th, 11th and 6th in his last three starts prior to yesterday when he was 4th choice. OK, I'll agree. American Pharoah is slightly better than Coach Inge.