The Belmont Winning Time

[PICSIX]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Here's a few thoughts...for those who wanted Materiality to run with AP early, going by the chart, Materiality was only a 1/2 length behind AP after 4 furlongs...

And look at those internal fractions...pretty damn amazing:

24.06
24.77
24.58
24.58
24.34
24.32

Digest that for a moment...then get back to me about how this horse is a fake.

That doesn't happen racing on dirt. Ultra impressive

[zico20]

Originally Posted by Cratos

I went against AP twice and loss. I didn't bet against him because I thought he was a "fake"; I was gambling that he had distance limitations and I was dead wrong.

I believe that AP has demonstrated that he has the tenacity of Affirmed with the high cruising speed of Seattle Slew and that is a very rare combination.

Will he lose? Yes he will, but I think it will be a "form cycle" downturn not a talent loss.

There are 4 major 1-1/4m races left in this year: The Travers (3yos), The JCGC (3yo&U), The Pacific Classic (3yo&U), and the Breeders' Cup Classic (3yo&U).

I believe after Baffert refreshes AP he will probably run him in a "tightener" as a prep for one of the aforementioned stakes.

If he completes and win any of the 4 races we will be talking about him as we speak of Dr. Fager, Secretariat, and Man O' War and he will deserve such recognition.

Lets not put him in this elite group just yet if he wins another race. Those three you mentioned all raced between 20 and 22 times. Plus they ran some unbelievable times. AP needs to win his last three races and do it impressively then we can talk about him being in the top 25 of all time.

[RacingFan1992]

Originally Posted by clocker7

So hardened bettors only look at raw times now?

Why not? They bitch and gripe about every other factor that people use to measure greatness. At least with time we can say who went faster than one another. Btw American Pharoah didn't do anything special, he just beat a weak crop.

[clocker7]

Like the Metropolitan clocking was dogmeat?

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by zico20

Lets not put him in this elite group just yet if he wins another race. Those three you mentioned all raced between 20 and 22 times. Plus they ran some unbelievable times. AP needs to win his last three races and do it impressively then we can talk about him being in the top 25 of all time.

The game has changed a bit since Mar o War years! Today the sport is way more sophisticated and demanding and top level horses run way less races than they used to. Also, I do not think that "unbelievable times" consist the top factor to classify a horse as belonging to the crème of the crème..

If AP goes on to win BC classic, he will certainly be in the same league as Secretariat or Settle Slew, becoming the Mar o' War of the 21st century..

[Steve R]

I think people need to slow down a bit. The race was certainly visually impressive but it should be put in some context.

Although the Belmont time was the quickest since 2001 on a fast track, Honor Code ran the 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years, Wedding Toast set the stakes record in the Phipps, March ran the 5th fastest Woody Stephens in its 30-year history and Coach Inge, whose prior top win was in an optional claimer, ran the 6th fastest Brooklyn ever at 12f and got the last quarter mile in :23.96 compared to American Pharoah's :24.32. In addition the three route stakes beyond a mile were all won by horses on the lead at the first call indicating a bias for the longer races.

Finally, by my PFs these three combined classics have the 3rd poorest average figure since at least 1997 where American Pharoah's Derby ranks 13th, his Preakness 17th and his Belmont 10th. Frankly, I was hoping the next TC winner would be better than that. We'll only know how good he might be when and if he tackles older horses and hopefully those of championship quality.

BTW, Beyer had his combined average TC race figures as the 8th lowest since 1991 with American's Pharoah's Derby as the 18th best, his Preakness as the 21st best and his Belmont the 13th best since then.

[zico20]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

The game has changed a bit since Mar o War years! Today the sport is way more sophisticated and demanding and top level horses run way less races than they used to. Also, I do not think that "unbelievable times" consist the top factor to classify a horse as belonging to the crème of the crème..

If AP goes on to win BC classic, he will certainly be in the same league as Secretariat or Settle Slew, becoming the Mar o' War of the 21st century..

I will agree with you that the game has changed. The quality has gotten much worse since the 1970s. That is why they run much less than they used to. What would you use instead of fast times to determine greatness. Durability? Versatility?

I am very happy I got to see a TC winner. AP deserved to win the TC, no doubt. Some in the past I have rooted against because I didn't want their names along side the ones of the 70s. I was rooting for AP to win this one. He deserves special recognition since it has been 37 years since it has been done. A lot of very good to borderline great horses have failed to win the TC since Affirmed, excluding Spectacular Bid who was truly great. But he was in that 70s group.

With that said, AP has a ways to go to be mentioned with the truly greats. The field in the Belmont was just as bad as the year Big Brown ran. Frosted has a chance to be a decent horse, but the rest are all allowance type horses. I was happy to see the final time was strong. AP had things all his own way in the Belmont. Although I strongly believe he would have won anyway if he had to fight for the lead or come from behind. He was just that much superior to the rest in there.

AP needs to show he belongs with the great ones and he can only do that by sweeping the rest of the year, which I presume to be three more races. But what if he loses to say CC in the BC classic. Since Chrome has been crucified on here by some, would AP be just another horse who caught a weak crop? Lets hope we don't have to find out and AP wins the rest of his races.

Right now AP is a very damned good horse who can show the world he is a great horse by not losing again all year since he can't show it next year, unfortunately.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Here's a few thoughts...for those who wanted Materiality to run with AP early, going by the chart, Materiality was only a 1/2 length behind AP after 4 furlongs...

And look at those internal fractions...pretty damn amazing:

24.06
24.77
24.58
24.58
24.34
24.32

Digest that for a moment...then get back to me about how this horse is a fake.

Coach Inge, whose prior best was winning an optional claimer:

23.62
25.58
24.60
25.00
24.41
23.96

Both the first and the last quarters under 24 in a mile and a half dirt race. Who does that?

American Pharoah got a BSF 105 to Coach Inge's 102. Wedding Toast, who set the stakes record in the Phipps got a 102. March, who ran the 5th fastest Woody Stephens in its 30-year history got a 95. Honor Code, who ran the 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years got a 112. Performances need to be evaluated in perspective.

I don't recall anyone calling American Pharoah a fake. But I personally was hoping the next TC winner would be better.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Coach Inge, whose prior best was winning an optional claimer:

23.62
25.58
24.60
25.00
24.41
23.96

Both the first and the last quarters under 24 in a mile and a half dirt race. Who does that?

American Pharoah got a BSF 105 to Coach Inge's 102. Wedding Toast, who set the stakes record in the Phipps got a 102. March, who ran the 5th fastest Woody Stephens in its 30-year history got a 95. Honor Code, who ran the 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years got a 112. Performances need to be evaluated in perspective.

I don't recall anyone calling American Pharoah a fake. But I personally was hoping the next TC winner would be better.

PLEASE STOP BEING LOGICAL, THEY WILL BLAST YOU ON HERE.......

The only acceptable posts on here are : AP is GOD, the best horse ever.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Coach Inge, whose prior best was winning an optional claimer:

23.62
25.58
24.60
25.00
24.41
23.96

Both the first and the last quarters under 24 in a mile and a half dirt race. Who does that?

American Pharoah got a BSF 105 to Coach Inge's 102. Wedding Toast, who set the stakes record in the Phipps got a 102. March, who ran the 5th fastest Woody Stephens in its 30-year history got a 95. Honor Code, who ran the 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years got a 112. Performances need to be evaluated in perspective.

I don't recall anyone calling American Pharoah a fake. But I personally was hoping the next TC winner would be better.

He sure got a breather during fractions 2-4...wouldn't you say?

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

He sure got a breather during fractions 2-4...wouldn't you say?

I would rate Coach Inge's race more impressive. Why?

Because it's harder to run your A race going 1 1/2 miles when you spend more energy in the first quarter. Horses are not cars. You can't start them and stop them and start them again. Maximum performance over 12 F is garnered through even splits, which AP had. Coach Inge ran a faster Q1 and a faster Q6 which is way more impressive vs. AP.

[EMD4ME]

Also....

Coach Inge was hounded at various points of the race. AP was not.

Who spends less gas, someone traveling 50 MPH the whole way, steadily, or the driver who accelerates, stops, accelerates, stops, accelerates etc.

Coach Inge, the optional claimer ran way better than AP. No seasoned expert horseplayer would dispute that. Regardless of him finishing 2/5 slower overall than AP.

Hence, and sorry again, why I am not impressed by AP. Nice horse, not awesome.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Coach Inge, whose prior best was winning an optional claimer:

23.62
25.58
24.60
25.00
24.41
23.96

Both the first and the last quarters under 24 in a mile and a half dirt race. Who does that?

American Pharoah got a BSF 105 to Coach Inge's 102. Wedding Toast, who set the stakes record in the Phipps got a 102. March, who ran the 5th fastest Woody Stephens in its 30-year history got a 95. Honor Code, who ran the 6th fastest Met Mile in 120 years got a 112. Performances need to be evaluated in perspective.

I don't recall anyone calling American Pharoah a fake. But I personally was hoping the next TC winner would be better.

AP only got a 105 Beyer for the Belmont Stakes? Man, that's surprising...my off-the-cuff gorilla math estimated about 10 points higher than that...

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Also....

Coach Inge was hounded at various points of the race. AP was not.

Who spends less gas, someone traveling 50 MPH the whole way, steadily, or the driver who accelerates, stops, accelerates, stops, accelerates etc.

Coach Inge, the optional claimer ran way better than AP. No seasoned expert horseplayer would dispute that. Regardless of him finishing 2/5 slower overall than AP.

Hence, and sorry again, why I am not impressed by AP. Nice horse, not awesome.

i have been watching these things for a long time, to me this horses performance during the triple crown campaign has been awesome.

as a fan i am enjoying this accomplishment today and i am very sad that you are continuously downgrading what this horse has done.

the only one you are fooling is yourself on this one.

[headhawg]

Originally Posted by Steve R

I don't recall anyone calling American Pharoah a fake. But I personally was hoping the next TC winner would be better.

This.