NYRA to Vegas: Pay us double

[SandyW]

Originally Posted by RXB

But 10% is a lot better than 6%. And if the 0% is just the short-term pain for the long-term 10%, it's a no-brainer.

There is not one chance in a million that Nevada will pay anywhere near 10% to greedy NYRA.
The race books will house book every signal long before agreeing to these outrageous demands.
The one thing that these tracks seem not to understand is that Nevada casinos don't need race books and would just put more slot machines in a smaller sports book to make up for any lost of revenue from racing.
These race tracks are playing with the big boys when they threaten casinos that will only be pushed so far.
Casinos will give up any part of their revenue and make it up somewhere else if they can't continue to give top notch customer service to any of their patrons.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

[SandyW]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

I don't think that there is any chance that the casino lobby will let there be any change in the no outside the state ADWs law any time in the near or far future.

[Tom]

Should the tracks have to live with that bad decision forever? Other businesses misprice their goods and services and make adjustments.

They be able to whatever they can to get more money for their signals - short of dissing their customer by denying them the ability to bet their races.
If they can't do that, they do not deserve the increase.
Customers come first.

[Robert Fischer]

myopic incompetence

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

I support free markets. The fact that ADWs aren't legal in NV is outrageous. As you've outlined, it gives too much negotiating power to the casinos. NYRA and CD should sue the state (along with several others) based on the Commerce Clause.

If they win that suit, then NY should be sued for the source market fees they charge other adws .

[Dave Schwartz]

This is really a great thread for discussing this stuff.

I know Dave understands what is going on, but some comments seem more based on conjecture than first-hand knowledge.

They are VERY ADMITTEDLY based upon conjecture; my opinion of the situation and experience from what I gathered (again, admittedly, years ago) that the racebook margins were well under 5% after expenses.

That's not what I meant, Dave. Read my post after that.

Thask,

Did not mean to offensively disagree, only disagree. However, if I have misunderstood please, explain as I do not understand.

Without ADWs, I can't argue your point. The casinos have a monopoly on racing action. That should bother you.

Mike,

I can tell you that it bothers me, but then, the entire gaming industry bothers me. Everything from how the employees are treated, to the low taxe revenue they contribute. (How is it possible that NV cannot be #1 in the country in casino tax revenue?)

Note: In fairness, re: treatment of employees - that is from my personal experience which is (I am glad to say) 25 years in my past. Although I still have friends in gaming who say that things have not changed much.

The casinos are in an enviable position b/c of a monopoly granted by the state (this assumes Dave S's estimates on handle generated from locals is correct), not b/c of anything else.

Not handle but business model. Think of it this way... if they are receiving 11-12% commission, certainly "gross profit" must far less than 6%. Not with labor costs, simulcast fees, gaming licenses, and keeping the lights on, etc. If 12% becomes 6% then there is no profit and probably loss.

But, of course, your point is well-taken: monopolies never work out well for the customer.

Nevada is a state like no other. Around the time that John Kennedy was shot...the dealers in Nevada were fighting a battle in the courts with the IRS over some tax issue concerning the dealers' tips. The headline on the front page of the Las Vegas Sun the day after the Kennedy shooting read, in large letters:

"DEALERS WIN LANDMARK CASE AGAINST THE IRS"...while in a remote corner of the page, in much smaller print, it stated..."John Kennedy shot...Lyndon Johnson new prez."

LOL - Seriously, thou doest speaketh the truth, Thask. Nothing like it.

I recall a Reno newspaper front page from a couple of decades ago where the big headline was about a California man winning a $200k jackpot on a penny machine at Harold's Club. It was like there was just no news in the world that was as important as that! LOL

Legalize ADWs in NV, then let the casinos shutdown their race books. But would the greedy casino lobby allow ADWs in the state? Given the casinos are the good guys, I'm sure they would lobby to change the state's laws regarding ADWs.

As I have deduced (perhaps incorrectly; always open to that) in the last few months, despite laws to the contrary being approved, the casino industry is pretty much in agreement that online casinos (or any other form of gambling online) are just "bad for business." The gaming lobby is working hard to squash that.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Thask,

Did not mean to offensively disagree, only disagree. However, if I have misunderstood please, explain as I do not understand.

Both you and Saratoga Mike have misunderstood what I said, so the fault must be mine for not phrasing my point correctly. When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

When the AWDs stopped taking wagers from Illinois bettors last January, due to some kind of "political oversight"...the Illinois horseplayers still had the option of wagering at the state tracks and the OTBs. The Nevada horseplayers are entirely dependent on the racebooks for their horserace wagering...and they would stop betting altogether if the racing signal is withheld from the racebooks there.

With the current agreement, the NYRA gets 6% of money that would NEVER be wagered if the agreement didn't exist. This money that the NYRA gets is FREE MONEY, that would otherwise be bet on another sport or casino game. If the signal is withheld from the Nevada casinos, then this income source dries up for good...and the only loser in this scenario will be the NYRA. 6% is a lot better than 0%.

[Dave Schwartz]

I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

Thask,

You are correct. I missed your point completely.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Both you and Saratoga Mike have misunderstood what I said, so the fault must be mine for not phrasing my point correctly. When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

When the AWDs stopped taking wagers from Illinois bettors last January, due to some kind of "political oversight"...the Illinois horseplayers still had the option of wagering at the state tracks and the OTBs. The Nevada horseplayers are entirely dependent on the racebooks for their horserace wagering...and they would stop betting altogether if the racing signal is withheld from the racebooks there.

With the current agreement, the NYRA gets 6% of money that would NEVER be wagered if the agreement didn't exist. This money that the NYRA gets is FREE MONEY, that would otherwise be bet on another sport or casino game. If the signal is withheld from the Nevada casinos, then this income source dries up for good...and the only loser in this scenario will be the NYRA. 6% is a lot better than 0%.

I knew what you meant. 100% in agreement. Anything they make from Vegas casinos is "found money".

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Smart move from NYRA to ask for 12%

They now need to do the same with all ADWs that take their signal

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Seabiscuit@AR

Smart move from NYRA to ask for 12%

They now need to do the same with all ADWs that take their signal

We will see how smart it looks as the days dwindle into January and they're losing daily handle from Vegas that they won't be being bet into their pools in other ways. Its money lost forever.

Vegas might accept a small raise, maybe like a quarter point or half point tops, but they're not getting anything close to double, especially since this is no skin of Vegases nose. In fact, Vegas might actually MAKE money by not taking the NYRA signal because people will be betting Parx and higher takeout tracks instead. Vegas has no reason to make a deal like this.

[EMD4ME]

Aren't there players who moved to Vegas from NY just for the insane rebates that a casino gave them (Paul Cornman for one, I believe) ? If Vegas takes this hit, the big player's rebates drop and there goes the big player's handle on NYRA races.

The source Market fee and these signal increases are each track focusing on eating a bigger piece of the small pie and NOT focusing on getting a bigger pie.

STUPID

[dirty moose]

Does nyra think Vegas will do anything but laugh at them?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When I said that Vegas caters to a group of horseplayers who wouldn't otherwise bet a NICKEL if racing wasn't offered there...I didn't mean to imply that those players weren't serious, everyday bettors. What I meant was that those players have no other choice but to bet through the sportbooks...so they would be left out in the cold if the racing signal is withheld from the Nevada racebooks. These players don't have the option of wagering using a different method of play, like the rest of the country is able to.

I agree with your major point, but I don't think 100% of that Vegas revenue would be lost to NYRA.

I've heard of a few full time horses players that moved to Vegas to play horses. If they were cut off, I assume they'd have to move back to NY, CA, or wherever they originally came from so they could continue playing.