BEL Fall handle

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by the little guy

If you take the 8 out before 9/10/11 that would be correct from what I understand.

I appreciate the info. Good to know. But they do run 8 races on Thursdays out in Cali, that's why I stated 8, 9, 10 or 11 races. Nevertheless, I think what they do isn't a true representation of handle then. I like NYRA's way of reporting better.

[Robert Goren]

Belmont was still as was Delmar, no matter how they figure it. I doubt if the weather and the continuing downward spiral of handle accounts for all of it. 10% is pretty good drop. No matter how they slice it, this sport is in trouble. It can't afford too many hits like that. In most businesses, it would be a wake up call. They would be cutting expenses and increasing marketing. I don't see either. Maybe they think that getting a few more slot players is the answer.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Belmont was still as was Delmar, no matter how they figure it. I doubt if the weather and the continuing downward spiral of handle accounts for all of it. 10% is pretty good drop. No matter how they slice it, this sport is in trouble. It can't afford too many hits like that. In most businesses, it would be a wake up call. They would be cutting expenses and increasing marketing. I don't see either. Maybe they think that getting a few more slot players is the answer.

Or sports wagering in NJ...

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Belmont was still as was Delmar, no matter how they figure it. I doubt if the weather and the continuing downward spiral of handle accounts for all of it. 10% is pretty good drop. No matter how they slice it, this sport is in trouble. It can't afford too many hits like that. In most businesses, it would be a wake up call. They would be cutting expenses and increasing marketing. I don't see either. Maybe they think that getting a few more slot players is the answer.

If you could get over your personal biases and just focus, you are smart enough to give a better take on it that this, your usual response. If major meetings ( Del Mar, Keeneland, and Belmont, in this case ) all see a relatively similar, and significant, drop at pretty much the same time, it is more than a random outflow of business. The question, of course, is what happened? Did three major players, bigger than Dan Borislow, pass away or walk away from the game? If so, and someone already brought this up, if they were positive equity players, is it possible that over time this will help the health of the game from a handle perspective?

One of the major reasons handle exploded almost 20 years ago was rebate driven handle. This was, essentially, a bubble, and when it abated, handle unsurprisingly decreased. Now, we had been showing signs of turning things around, and then this hit. The question is what exactly caused it, is it necessarily a long-term bad thing, and what can be done, if anything, to correct it. None of that gets done with the usual Chicken Little act. Not here....not anywhere.

[lamboguy]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...xas?source=rss

i have to think that not being able to bet with ADW's in Texas has had to hurt the handles all over this year, there are some very huge players there, but this is only 1 factor, there are plenty more that i can see.

[Cholly]

Originally Posted by the little guy

If you could get over your personal biases and just focus, you are smart enough to give a better take on it that this, your usual response. If major meetings ( Del Mar, Keeneland, and Belmont, in this case ) all see a relatively similar, and significant, drop at pretty much the same time, it is more than a random outflow of business. The question, of course, is what happened? Did three major players, bigger than Dan Borislow, pass away or walk away from the game? If so, and someone already brought this up, if they were positive equity players, is it possible that over time this will help the health of the game from a handle perspective?

One of the major reasons handle exploded almost 20 years ago was rebate driven handle. This was, essentially, a bubble, and when it abated, handle unsurprisingly decreased. Now, we had been showing signs of turning things around, and then this hit. The question is what exactly caused it, is it necessarily a long-term bad thing, and what can be done, if anything, to correct it. None of that gets done with the usual Chicken Little act. Not here....not anywhere.

Cholly's never been accused of being particularly quick on the uptake, but even he can read between these lines. Thanks for the info.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...xas?source=rss

i have to think that not being able to bet with ADW's in Texas has had to hurt the handles all over this year, there are some very huge players there, but this is only 1 factor, there are plenty more that i can see.

NY added a 5% "tax" to bettors, whether or not they bet on the NYRA product, this possibly got rid of any large bettor who was a NY resident, nobody smart is going to keep betting large amounts and hand over 5% extra....but i don't know enough about this tax and its ramifications to say for sure if this was a factor or not.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Cholly

Cholly's never been accused of being particularly quick on the uptake, but even he can read between these lines. Thanks for the info.

Honestly, there is nothing "in between the lines" about my post. It's straight forward.

I think it's an interesting and important discussion. It's unfortunate that people get bogged down in their personal biases, or SRU interrupts and ruins every conversation here, as there are a lot of smart and knowledgeable people here. It's just tough for them to get an intelligent conversation going without it getting badly side tracked.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by the little guy

If you could get over your personal biases and just focus, you are smart enough to give a better take on it that this, your usual response. If major meetings ( Del Mar, Keeneland, and Belmont, in this case ) all see a relatively similar, and significant, drop at pretty much the same time, it is more than a random outflow of business. The question, of course, is what happened? Did three major players, bigger than Dan Borislow, pass away or walk away from the game? If so, and someone already brought this up, if they were positive equity players, is it possible that over time this will help the health of the game from a handle perspective?

One of the major reasons handle exploded almost 20 years ago was rebate driven handle. This was, essentially, a bubble, and when it abated, handle unsurprisingly decreased. Now, we had been showing signs of turning things around, and then this hit. The question is what exactly caused it, is it necessarily a long-term bad thing, and what can be done, if anything, to correct it. None of that gets done with the usual Chicken Little act. Not here....not anywhere.

Is Fantasy Football a big part of the problem? I know nothing about it(how hard it is to win or lose, takeout....), but obviously a huge industry right now. Has to be hurting all forms of gambling. I cant seem to get the link function to work, but paste this into your browser for a link to an article how big this is.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leighste...all-explosion/

A quote from the article:

How big is the market? In terms of actual expenditures, the Fantasy Sports Trade Association – yes, there is a trade association – estimates that 32 million Americans spend $467 per person or about $15 billion in total playing. Roughly, 11 billion flows toward football. These figures don’t count ad revenue for fantasy hosting sites. The NFL’s annual revenue falls just under $10 billion currently. So the “derivative” market has grown larger than the foundational market.

[badcompany]

Originally Posted by onefast99

Or sports wagering in NJ...

Or Royalties from television shows that featured horses

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

NY added a 5% "tax" to bettors, whether or not they bet on the NYRA product, this possibly got rid of any large bettor who was a NY resident, nobody smart is going to keep betting large amounts and hand over 5% extra....but i don't know enough about this tax and its ramifications to say for sure if this was a factor or not.

Can you please explain exactly what you mean by an added five percent tax??? I think I am missing something here....

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Can you please explain exactly what you mean by an added five percent tax??? I think I am missing something here....

Maybe its not a tax? I don't know, i was under the impression that NY did some kind of law/rule change where bettors who live in NY had to pay a fee to bet with an ADW. I'm not sure what it was called though.

Here's a thread that has something to do with it.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ight=surcharge

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

Maybe its not a tax? I don't know, i was under the impression that NY did some kind of law/rule change where bettors who live in NY had to pay a fee to bet with an ADW. I'm not sure what it was called though.

Hmm... I do not use their (or anyone else's) ADW, so probably you are correct... I am sure that my friend EMERALD knows more about it..

[DeanT]

New York fees.

http://www.drf.com/news/new-york-add...tate-companies

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Is Fantasy Football a big part of the problem? I know nothing about it(how hard it is to win or lose, takeout....), but obviously a huge industry right now. Has to be hurting all forms of gambling. I cant seem to get the link function to work, but paste this into your browser for a link to an article how big this is.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leighste...all-explosion/

A quote from the article:

How big is the market? In terms of actual expenditures, the Fantasy Sports Trade Association – yes, there is a trade association – estimates that 32 million Americans spend $467 per person or about $15 billion in total playing. Roughly, 11 billion flows toward football. These figures don’t count ad revenue for fantasy hosting sites. The NFL’s annual revenue falls just under $10 billion currently. So the “derivative” market has grown larger than the foundational market.

I guess it's fair to say Fantasy Football is another competitor for the gambling dollar, but I'm not sure how you would connect it specifically to this sudden handle drop.

It just feels more specific, at least to me.