Glad to see I'm not alone...

[cj]

...in taking up the abolish run up cause. From Pat Cummings:

https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/a...istiming-races

[parlay]

Good read. Its always interesting to see how things came to be, and difficult it is to make change happen.

[raybo]

Oh, you're not the only one, for sure. It has always seemed "odd" to me that race timing starts while horses are already above 0 mph (or in my case fps). Even more "odd" is the fact that the majority of racegoers don't even know that.

[thaskalos]

Where is this "figure-focused trend toward advanced analytics in racing"...that Cummings is talking about in his article? Have I missed it?

[raybo]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Where is this "figure-focused trend toward advanced analytics in racing"...that Cummings is talking about in his article? Have I missed it?

I assumed he was talking about the rampant usage of pace, speed, power figures, etc., rather than raw or adjusted time. It would be much easier, and much more accurate for anyone making figures, to accomplish that task.

[Jeff P]

You're not the only one CJ...

Worse, if you time from the gate to the wire - and then work backwards and look at official published times for each segment of the race - it isn't that hard to discover tracks that have been publishing run up distances that are nowhere close to accurate - and have been doing so for years.


-jp

.

[AndyC]

While recognizing the desire for more information and more accuracy in what is reported I feel that doing so just takes away another edge from a handicapper willing to do their homework.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by AndyC

While recognizing the desire for more information and more accuracy in what is reported I feel that doing so just takes away another edge from a handicapper willing to do their homework.

LOL - How many players actually have an edge? I think we could use a few more, for the health of the game. Those of us who actually have an edge won't be able to exploit it if racing goes away. We need more successes, or near successes, in order to keep the game afloat. Even with more accurate data, the big equalizer is in the betting, and that will escape most, with or without better data.

If you're not a whale, you probably will be better off in the end, as more of the whales will leave looking for a better edge somewhere else.

[classhandicapper]

It was a terrific article, but I agree that there will be some resistance.

A solution that includes the run up in the distance (6F and 30 yards, 6 furlongs 20 yards etc...) will be confusing to non figure makers that are unaware of this sort of thing to begin with. It will also take some time for figure makers (especially people that make their own or that sell pace figures) to update all their charts and formulas so they can publish figures that reflect the new realities.

[ronsmac]

I have to give ragozin credit he was addressing run up and wind for decades .

[raybo]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

It was a terrific article, but I agree that it will be some resistance.

A solution that includes the run up in the distance (6F and 30 yards, 6 furlongs 20 yards etc...) will be confusing to non figure makers that are unaware of this sort of thing to begin with. It will also take some time for figure makers (especially people that make their own or that sell pace figures) to update all their charts and formulas so they can publish figures that reflect the new realities.

Yes, there will be resistance for sure. Unless Brisnet has recently added it, they don't even include it in their data files. Don't know if HDW does or not, it doesn't appear to be included in the JCapper/HDW data files anyway, which is what I have switched to after years of using Bris files.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by AndyC

While recognizing the desire for more information and more accuracy in what is reported I feel that doing so just takes away another edge from a handicapper willing to do their homework.

One advantage of class handicapping is that occasional misleading fractions or finals times along these lines are a non factor if you are evaluating horses in a qualitative way. So while I think the way we time races now is crazy, part of me wishes there were even more things like this that we did wrong.

[cj]

Originally Posted by AndyC

While recognizing the desire for more information and more accuracy in what is reported I feel that doing so just takes away another edge from a handicapper willing to do their homework.

No matter how much homework you do, you'll never have accurate information. It is possible to get the time of the run up, but it is time consuming. However, as Jeff mentions, even once you put that work in, it is impossible to tell the exact distance of the run up. The posted run up distances are unreliable to be kind, and trying to judge them off of video is not going to be accurate. Sure, if you are a one circuit pony and can go live every day, you can get an edge.

The easiest answer that I rarely see mentioned is this...just time the run up and give us the exact distance. Then you can leave all your useless track records in place and those that like missing information can ignore it and not have to adapt to anything new.

Trakus has the information already, they just don't divulge it. I personally see this as an edge they are given that other horseplayers don't have, and don't particularly find it fair. Tracks are giving them access to information nobody else can get.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

It was a terrific article, but I agree that there will be some resistance.

A solution that includes the run up in the distance (6F and 30 yards, 6 furlongs 20 yards etc...) will be confusing to non figure makers that are unaware of this sort of thing to begin with. It will also take some time for figure makers (especially people that make their own or that sell pace figures) to update all their charts and formulas so they can publish figures that reflect the new realities.

This is 2014...would probably take about 5 minutes.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

I have to give ragozin credit he was addressing run up and wind for decades .

Yes, but hand timing isn't very accurate, so it balances out in my opinion.