THE DEMISE OF RACING???

[RXB]

How about if we compare Australia and USA/Canada? Much more alike in terms of land mass, culture, a significant number of racetracks spread across a large country, etc.

Australia (population 23 million) handles about as much on thoroughbred racing as the USA (population over 300 million). Canada (population 35 million) is a mere blip in horse racing compared to Australia. I'm fairly sure that the cultural inclination to gamble isn't 12-15 multiples stronger in Australia than in North America.

So what do Australia and Hong Kong have more in common? They don't race on dirt. They are much stricter regarding race day medication as well as punishment for illegal drug usage. They don't do the claiming thing at all in HK and rarely in Australia.

[whodoyoulike]

[QUOTE=NY BRED]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

... Us track management should reconsider their agendas and attempt
to mirror the major components mentioned in Pat's advice in an
attempt to regain their old customers and gain new ones.

Do you think this is possible with 50 +/- fiefdoms and 30 +/- Racing Commissions here versus looks like 1 or 2 in HK?

There was a post about a pissed off owner suggesting a national governing board for racing. Someone should evaluate the pros and cons of this proposal.

[nearco]

Originally Posted by RXB

How about if we compare Australia and USA/Canada? Much more alike in terms of land mass, culture, a significant number of racetracks spread across a large country, etc.

Australia (population 23 million) handles about as much on thoroughbred racing as the USA (population over 300 million). Canada (population 35 million) is a mere blip in horse racing compared to Australia. I'm fairly sure that the cultural inclination to gamble isn't 12-15 multiples stronger in Australia than in North America.

Yes it is. Aussies, like the Irish, and to a degree the British, would bet on ants climbing up a wall.
The US has a very strong undercurrent of "Gambling is evil" that prevades the culture. There are whole states where you can't gamble, and even in states where you can it is super restricted.
Australia never had the fundie/puritan strain to deal with. Gambling is just an every day normal thing over there.

[RXB]

Originally Posted by nearco

Yes it is. Aussies, like the Irish, and to a degree the British, would bet on ants climbing up a wall.
The US has a very strong undercurrent of "Gambling is evil" that prevades the culture. There are whole states where you can't gamble, and even in states where you can it is super restricted.
Australia never had the fundie/puritan strain to deal with. Gambling is just an every day normal thing over there.

Gambling losses per adult in Australia was estimated at $1288 vs. $568 in Canada. The United States was just under $400. Large differences but not anywhere close to the massive gaps in per capita wagering on horse racing.

[NY BRED]

[QUOTE=whodoyoulike][QUOTE=NY BRED]

Do you think this is possible with 50 +/- fiefdoms and 30 +/- Racing Commissions here versus looks like 1 or 2 in HK?


Hell no, but I believe there are connected parties on this site who could
mention these thoughts to the their respective track
administrators, which might turn some heads.

While some people would argue the HK public love to gamble,
it would be interesting to compare their casino revenue vs
the U.S Casino revenue and percentage difference for both
countries against racing revenue.

I really believe(bring on the rants) the American public flock to
the casinos as they believe they have no shot winning at the track due
to illegal medication issues, high takeout, track admission fees and
the lack of information on handicapping which tracks should
offer to make this game fan friendly.

I won't delve into building new tracks, but I would recommend
tracks consider night racing which could draw more fans
especially on week days. The average betting and attendance at
AQU during late fall could make an interesting experiment to bring
a casino type experience to newbies.


Many casino offer "lessons"/practice sessions during early morning
hours, why not follow their lead?


I realize these thoughts have been discussed many times on this
forum, just venting after reading about the Success of HK racing,

[rastajenk]

Do you really think Americans would flock back to live racing and simulcasting venues if all these things were copied, adopted, or adapted?

I don't. I believe there would be considerable expense and little, if any, uptick in business, especially if all this Hong Kong-style wealth of information and integrity made things even more difficult for a new fan to become casual, or a casual one to become regular. With casino companies watching every penny spent on the racing side of their biz, this Utopian version will not come to pass in this country in our lifetimes.

I also believe that in our culture it could even be counterproductive, that the effect of some progressive march backwards to a glorious past (an illogical notion, seems to me) could take some of the fun out of it, and end up hastening the decline. We enjoy thousands of different trainers with thousands of different training practices for thousands of different owners, each with his or her own business plan for participation in this sport. It is American and egalitarian. Limiting access and control of one's property, raising the cost of participation, anything that reduces participation levels is heading the wrong way. American culture is constantly changing, and racing will never be more than a niche thing again. But I'd rather see it maintained for as long as possible than see it damaged further by sincere but misguided Hong Kong-style progressives.

[castaway01]

[QUOTE=NY BRED][QUOTE=whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by NY BRED

Do you think this is possible with 50 +/- fiefdoms and 30 +/- Racing Commissions here versus looks like 1 or 2 in HK?


Hell no, but I believe there are connected parties on this site who could
mention these thoughts to the their respective track
administrators, which might turn some heads.

While some people would argue the HK public love to gamble,
it would be interesting to compare their casino revenue vs
the U.S Casino revenue and percentage difference for both
countries against racing revenue.

I really believe(bring on the rants) the American public flock to
the casinos as they believe they have no shot winning at the track due
to illegal medication issues, high takeout, track admission fees and
the lack of information on handicapping which tracks should
offer to make this game fan friendly.

I won't delve into building new tracks, but I would recommend
tracks consider night racing which could draw more fans
especially on week days. The average betting and attendance at
AQU during late fall could make an interesting experiment to bring
a casino type experience to newbies.


Many casino offer "lessons"/practice sessions during early morning
hours, why not follow their lead?


I realize these thoughts have been discussed many times on this
forum, just venting after reading about the Success of HK racing,

Hong Kong racing is run by a group that controls all horse wagering and sports gambling in the country. Do you think if we gave a single organization here financial control of all horse and sports gambling in the country that it could make some money? You can't compare apples and baseballs.

I can't agree with some of your ideas. For example, night racing as a solution? You're from Jersey! We had plenty of night racing. Garden State, gone. Atlantic City, just about gone. Meadowlands for thoroughbreds, just about gone. Night racing was tried and failed.

Horse racing is failing for many reasons, but mostly that casino wagering is now convenient and has always been simpler. Takeout? OF COURSE it would be better for all of us, the more serious players, if takeout was slashed in half. However, the state and national lotteries are booming with a 50% takeout. Most people believe that have no shot at winning (in the long run) at a casino, lottery, OR racetrack, but they go to casinos and play lotteries because they are easy and on every corner. They're a simple, easy distraction from life. And if there are too many casinos in an area, they fail too, just like the ones in Atlantic City are doing now (in the past month, Showboat and Revel).

[lamboguy]

maybe in this country people trust casino's and lottery's more than they do horse racing. whenever there have been impropriety's that have gone on in lottery's and casino's they came out in the open and safeguards were put on so that the customer's trust the game. that does not happen in racing.

the guys running the racing in our country are complete fools for not giving the customer what they want. all the customer wants is a fair shot. they will play horse racing before lottery's and casino's if they thought the game was on the level. the people going to the races in Hong Kong think the game is on the up and up. they are doing $180 million a night in business there for 2014, they expect to be at $300 million by 2017 and far beyond that in the decade of 2020.

we have more land and more tracks on our continent, that only means there is more room for growth of the industry here. not only that, the competition to horse racing is lottery's and casino's, those are 2 non productive business's. for horse racing to survive you have to constantly produce more horses. you need more food to feed the horses. the amount of jobs created from horse racing is 10 times the amount that you get in lottery's.

when you look at the people that gave up playing horses you will find that they went to the lottery because they don't trust horse racing any longer.

[traynor]

I don't think the public's perception of the relative honesty or dishonesty of racing compared to casinos is the issue at all. It is the near impossible chance of the average bettor to make a profit that is the issue. The result of a few hours of wagering in a casino is as likely to be a plus as a minus, and if it is a minus, it is likely to be relatively small. The result of a few hours of wagering at a racetrack is almost guaranteed to be a minus, and a substantial one at that.

In psychology, it is called "learned helplessness." Enough losing bets, and all interest in wagering at that type of venue is gone. At racetracks, the relative probability of a sufficiently long string of races to extingusish any desire to continue wagering is high. In a casino, there may be overall losses, but there are sufficient wins to prevent extinction of the behavior.

New bettors avoid racetracks because they dislike losing all (or most) of their wagers. It doesn't take more than a day or two at the track to turn a prospective horse bettor into an avid casino bettor.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by NY BRED

I really believe(bring on the rants) the American public flock to
the casinos as they believe they have no shot winning at the track due
to illegal medication issues, high takeout, track admission fees and
the lack of information on handicapping which tracks should
offer to make this game fan friendly.

I really don't think that many people put as much mental energy into their decisions as you believe.

Betting on horses takes a huge personal time investment just to become an average bettor. It is a complicated game. With casinos people can still have delusions of winning big without spending years learning how to play.

[affirmedny]

Originally Posted by TheEdge07

Yes thank you...article wriiten on Mr.Woods was amazing..anyone has the link?

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfe...n_8366/print/Y

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by traynor

New bettors avoid racetracks because they dislike losing all (or most) of their wagers. It doesn't take more than a day or two at the track to turn a prospective horse bettor into an avid casino bettor.

Very true, someone who goes to a track for the first time is most likely to come back with nothing. I’ve only played slot machines a handful of times in my life. I recently saw a TV piece about them and apparently many of them are “rigged” not to completely bankrupt the player. So if I’m sitting at a bar with a slot machine in front of me if I put in $20 and at the end of an hour I have $3 left, I don’t feel like I’m a total loser. In horseracing, you either win or lose - you get $2.20 back (minimum) on your $2 bet or you lose the whole thing. (That is, unless you get ADW rebates which is another topic).

[PatCummings]

Checking back on this topic relative to a few comments made above re: Hong Kong. Outside of their biggest racedays, the HKJC does almost no marketing to get people to Sha Tin. All of their mainstream marketing is based around Happy Valley. It's the equivalent of spending more money to say "go to Saratoga" compared to "go to Aqueduct." Racing at Happy Valley is as electric as you can experience, while Sha Tin is very nice, but a much more sterile environment.

There seems to be way too much absolutism in comments that circulate about the bad state of racing and or the ways to save it. The "if we don't do X, Y, and Z, then it's all over." Or, "the way to get new fans is to do A, B, C." I think we need to learn to live and operate more in the grey as opposed to black and white. Every situation is, more or less, different given varying market conditions, etc.

That said, it would be understandable for US operators to look at the single most successful racing jurisdiction in the world and develop some scale-able actions that could capitalize on areas of similarity.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Japan racing is better than HK racing but the Japanese like to keep their racing to themselves mostly so you hear less about it

Hong Kong racing does have a weakness in that it is not self sufficient. It relies on the other racing countries round the world to supply it with horses, jockeys, trainers and officials like stewards. So when all the other racing countries go bust eventually Hong Kong will too