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Old 05-08-2014, 04:06 PM   #1
Stillriledup
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Mike Smith's ride on Starry Skies, Apr 25 Race 6 SA

With the big discussion on Avila and Berrio, i though i'd point out this ride by Smith on Starry Skies in the 6th race on Apr 25th.

He was the betting favorite and never really "let this horse run" he had her wrapped up in Midstretch and never urged for the final 1/8th of a mile.

If this was Berrio, with same exact ride, would he be questioned for "no urging"?

Where do you stand on the long used practice of "giving a horse a race"?
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:38 PM   #2
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Just watched the replay and head-on replay multiple times. I saw horses going all over the place on the downhill SA turf course (particularly from the head-on) and Starry Skies was coming off a 1 1/2 year absence. I didn't see any horse being stiffed. What are you seeing?
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:43 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillriledup
With the big discussion on Avila and Berrio, i though i'd point out this ride by Smith on Starry Skies in the 6th race on Apr 25th.

He was the betting favorite and never really "let this horse run" he had her wrapped up in Midstretch and never urged for the final 1/8th of a mile.

If this was Berrio, with same exact ride, would he be questioned for "no urging"?

Where do you stand on the long used practice of "giving a horse a race"?
Mike Smith does that on a lot on favorites. He says that at this point in his career it's about the horse first. Sometimes you gotta wonder, though. I love the guy, but I've cursed him.
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Old 05-08-2014, 04:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
Just watched the replay and head-on replay multiple times. I saw horses going all over the place on the downhill SA turf course (particularly from the head-on) and Starry Skies was coming off a 1 1/2 year absence. I didn't see any horse being stiffed. What are you seeing?
So the Berrio horse was coming off a 3 or 4 year "absense" since he was a first time starter. What does it matter when the horse last raced? Does it give a jock to try "less hard" if the horse "needs" the race?

I was asking if this same horse was ridden by Berrio would people say he wasnt urging the horse in the stretch? Or, because its Mike Smith, does he get a pass?

Also, i never used the word "Stiffed" that's your word, not mine.
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:47 PM   #5
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I feel like we're talking past each other - is this thread to defend Berrio or to call out Mike Smith? I assume we're both working from this piece:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...maiden-winner/
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
I feel like we're talking past each other - is this thread to defend Berrio or to call out Mike Smith? I assume we're both working from this piece:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...maiden-winner/
Its to ask the question about a double standard and if you think there might be one when it comes to Berrio.

If Starry Skies was ridden by Berrio, would we just chalk up the "no late urge" to "great horsemanship" or would we think something was up.
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:28 PM   #7
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Let me rephrase the question and offer a multiple choice answer where you can select only ONE: are you (i) defending Berrio, (ii) criticized Smith, (iii) neither, (iv) both?
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
Let me rephrase the question and offer a multiple choice answer where you can select only ONE: are you (i) defending Berrio, (ii) criticized Smith, (iii) neither, (iv) both?
I'm probably essentially defending Berrio. I'm not criticizing Smith, as long as the judges are fine with how he rode this filly, i'm fine with it too.

Since this 'can of worms' has been opened w Berrio, i think its fair (?) to make sure all jocks are riding hard all the time all the way to the wire. If you are going to pick apart Berrio and his 'non urging" its only fair to pick apart everyone else....you know, if that's the standard the judges (who are investigating) want to adhere to.
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:42 PM   #9
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Got it.

This is the part of the Paulick article that caught my eye (my emphasis added):

Masochistic’s March 15 debut was anything but normal.

Fourth choice in the betting at 8-1 that day, Berrio sat like a statue on the horse for nearly the entire six furlongs, weaving back and forth behind horses, then diving to the rail in the stretch. The ride was so lethargic the jockey was called in the next morning for a video review with the stewards, at which he was accompanied by Jockeys’ Guild representative Darrel Haire.

“There was no discussion of the pertinent facts as a formal hearing will be set in the near future,” the stewards wrote in their daily minutes. “The Board of Stewards was concerned that Mr. Berrio prevented his horse from giving his best race. The horse was examined and tested post-race, and the CHRB investigators were directed to look into the matter.”

Three weeks later, blood and urine samples came back positive for the tranquilizer Acepromazine, a Class 3 drug under California Horse Racing Board rules. A complaint filed by the stewards said a search of Avila’s barn uncovered “medication bottles with blank veterinarian prescription labels attached or no prescription labels at all.”
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
Got it.

This is the part of the Paulick article that caught my eye (my emphasis added):

Masochistic’s March 15 debut was anything but normal.

Fourth choice in the betting at 8-1 that day, Berrio sat like a statue on the horse for nearly the entire six furlongs, weaving back and forth behind horses, then diving to the rail in the stretch. The ride was so lethargic the jockey was called in the next morning for a video review with the stewards, at which he was accompanied by Jockeys’ Guild representative Darrel Haire.

“There was no discussion of the pertinent facts as a formal hearing will be set in the near future,” the stewards wrote in their daily minutes. “The Board of Stewards was concerned that Mr. Berrio prevented his horse from giving his best race. The horse was examined and tested post-race, and the CHRB investigators were directed to look into the matter.”

Three weeks later, blood and urine samples came back positive for the tranquilizer Acepromazine, a Class 3 drug under California Horse Racing Board rules. A complaint filed by the stewards said a search of Avila’s barn uncovered “medication bottles with blank veterinarian prescription labels attached or no prescription labels at all.”
Maybe the Berrio ride has been tied into the idea that the trainer gave the horse a "slow down" drug, but essentially the comments "sit like a statue" is talking about his urging (or lack of) on this horse.

I'm wondering if you hold Berrio to a certain standard of 'urging' you have to hold everyone to that same standard. No wrapping up, you urge all the way. Now, i'm not saying to beat up a horse who is well beaten, but no reason not to pump your hands all the way, as opposed to just wrapping up.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:14 PM   #11
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Prior to Smith wrapping the horse up, what was he doing with his mount?
If he never asked the horse for anything and was a motionless statue that is certainly different than if he was asking his mount for run and throwing a few crosses at her and then wrapped up on her. If he did ask for run what was the response.

Either way absolutely the game needs to eliminate the questionable looking rides, in terms of non-effort.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillriledup
I'm wondering if you hold Berrio to a certain standard of 'urging' you have to hold everyone to that same standard. No wrapping up, you urge all the way. Now, i'm not saying to beat up a horse who is well beaten, but no reason not to pump your hands all the way, as opposed to just wrapping up.
OK - got it.

We have previously received some very good advice about this issue from an honest-to-god current trainer on the board. Not dissing Berrio - rather, I'm suggesting the jockeys have run enough races to know when there is nothing left in tank and they need to hang on for dear life to get the horse across the finish line.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dannyhill
Prior to Smith wrapping the horse up, what was he doing with his mount?
If he never asked the horse for anything and was a motionless statue that is certainly different than if he was asking his mount for run and throwing a few crosses at her and then wrapped up on her. If he did ask for run what was the response.

Either way absolutely the game needs to eliminate the questionable looking rides, in terms of non-effort.
Smith pushed the horse along and threw a few crosses and whatnut, but he never put her into the race, he was just in the back "going around" and it didnt appear to me that his life depended on her winning or hitting the board.

Perception might not be everything, but its certainly a lot. You gotta urge all the way, whether you're Berrio, Smith or anyone else.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
OK - got it.

We have previously received some very good advice about this issue from an honest-to-god current trainer on the board. Not dissing Berrio - rather, I'm suggesting the jockeys have run enough races to know when there is nothing left in tank and they need to hang on for dear life to get the horse across the finish line.
I'm pretty sure i've been in the middle of those discussions...and i think as bettors who are risking hard earned money, we don't really want jocks to be "Deciding" whether they're going to urge all the way or not. Just urge, you're a jock, paid to ride...they're not paid to train or own, so as a rider, i don't think i'm being unreasonable to ask them to do what they're paid to do, its also not unreasonable to ask them to urge all the way to the end. Its a Pandemic these days for jocks to just "ease up" at the wire, seems like i see this stuff way too often, there are always threads on it and plenty of examples of jocks costing mounts board spots due to being lazy.

Not asking them to punish a stopping horse who finishes way back, but if you have a shot to get 5th or better, you gotta ride hard all the way.

When these discussions come up, people defend a jock's right to stop riding because they think some bettors are asking for the jock to pound on the horse with the whip no matter where they are on the track. The discussion really surrounds horses who are in contention for an exotic board spot (down to 5th in some races).

For some bettors, a 4th place finish could be much more valuable than a win finish, a bettor can need a certain horse for 4th or 5th to cash a monster Super or Penta, so for them, there's no difference between 1st and 4th and yet many jocks ride as if there is.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:12 PM   #15
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Not arguing - you realize that the jockeys are making their $$ from the owners, right? Trainers equal or next.

Bettors like us don't factor into the equation. Not saying that's right or wrong -it is the reality.

If I owned a horse that had no shot at winning or cashing a decent owner's check, I don't think I'd want the jockey to whip the bejesus out of my horse down the stretch. Wait for another day.

Bettors like us are the sheep to be sheared. We don't count at all in the current scheme of things. Again - not saying that is right; just that we are the LAST people considered.
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