"Trainerspeak" on the record

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.

Is that the impression that you are getting?

My impression is that the vast majority of the "industry people" couldn't care less about these allegations...and they are just waiting for the next "controversy" to come along -- so that this one could be safely pushed into the background...as all the others have been...

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Is that the impression that you are getting?

My impression is that the vast majority of the "industry people" couldn't care less about these allegations...and they are just waiting for the next "controversy" to come along -- so that this one could be safely pushed into the background...as all the others have been...

Not true. I have never seen a story get this much attention in racing evvvveeerrrr. I mean even the Penn arrests got talked about for a couple of weeks and died down. It is also amazing to see how people in different positions view it differently. The vast majority feel that there was a lot of sensationalizing done in the video but also some embarrassment. Remember, we eat, sleep, live, breath horses. We dream about them and when things are really bad they force you out of bed and keep you from dwelling. So, you can understand how our first reaction would be "wtf? That horse is just getting scoped" or whatever. There is a lot in that video that very easily can be taken the wrong way if you are not a professional at caring for athletic horses.

The difference is, the vast majority of industry people aren't reacting because they are busy !!! We can't take a day off. Horses need feeding, exercise, grooming, entries made, shoes put on, vet care (yup) etc. feed needs ordering, and unloading. Jockeys need to be spoken to and lines up. Reg papers need to be in the right place at the right time. Tattoos have to be put on. Payroll needs to be done and bills paid and issued. Horses need to be shipped to run. Licensing needs to be kept up to date. Out of town help needs to be organized. Trainers, jockeys and shippers need to travel. Horses at the farm need tending to. Equipment needs to be repaired and purchased. All this can't stop. It goes on around the clock. And to be honest, I have tried to clarify things for people in a logical way, and frankly it seems like a waste of time. I thought if people want to protest, at least protest with the right info so you don't look crazy. Now I understand why people go on with their jobs without even attempting it.

Regulators need to investigate to see if there was wrongdoing and act on it. Officials can not react on allegations alone. Could you imagine if everyone got rules off when someone went to the stewards and told them a story? They have to investigate. If things are legal that shouldn't be, they have to take action on it, if possible.

[clocker7]

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.

[cj]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.

Yeah, we need to be schooled because it is all so great on he backside. Lets keep doing things exactly the same way because it is working so well for the game.

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by cj

Yeah, we need to be schooled because it is all so great on he backside. Lets keep doing things exactly the same way because it is working so well for the game.

Who said that?

I just come from the position that, all things being considered, horse racing is a net positive.

What is your position? Net positive or net negative? Please don't dodge.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Who said that?

I just come from the position that, all things being considered, horse racing is a net positive.

What is your position? Net positive or net negative? Please don't dodge.

The backside, horsemen - owners and trainers - brought this all upon themselves. They get exactly whatever is coming to them.

If that means more regulation and more hassle and more hoops to jump through in the process, then too bad. This is what you get for being so damn cavalier throughout all these years, thinking you all run the show and you can basically get away with whatever you want.

The chickens are going to come home to roost one of these days...and it's not going to be pretty. But just remember, no horse player ever shot up a horse with questionable meds, and no horse player ever sold a horse to the killers.

[clocker7]

The Jockey Club came into existence in early 1894, proposed as being an anti-dote to all of the ills of horseracing. The members themselves offered themselves as the answer to all of the critics inside and outside of the sport. Their strategy was to parry the legal and political onslaught, and to appease where they could. They argued that a central authority could seize the reins, clean up the mess, while fending off the actual haters and sworn enemies.

Well, history proved the folly of that approach. Their foes were jihadists and were relentless. Even though assuming more powers than any czar, the sport was abolished in their region only 14 years later. It took years of backtracking, hard labor, and sensible & measured regulation by individual states to reverse their ignominious failure and to defeat those who sought instant purity (where it never exists anyway).

So here we are in 2014, facing even lesser issues, but dealing with those portraying them as cataclysmic. And retracing the same pathetic steps of some Neville Chamberlain-type ancestors who thought they had all the answers, too.

I have approached this sport with eyes-wide-open for over 40 years, knowing full well that cheaters abound. But also with the sophistication that chasing utopia is a fool's errand.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.

"Anarchy" is overstating, almost comically.

Overstating is my biggest objection. Framing the issue with breathless terms defeats anything reasonable that opponents might say. I'll gladly concede that the situation is bittersweet. But saying that is is all sour is a non-starter.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I mean, human physicians can't even agree on normal thyroid levels and there is much more research than in horses. The same dilemna exists in human sports as there is a doctor that will diagnose hypothyroidism so treatment is considered to normalize rather than enhance. Read the conclusion of this story...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...nhancing-drug/

My reference to baselines was for the same horse during training and after a race. You ask if other testing requires a baseline. Well no, because a horse doesn't have bute naturally circulating in its body. So the baseline would be zero. This subject comes up often relating to blood gas testing as some horses can naturally have high levels.

Not every trainer crawled out from under a rock and hung a shingle out. There are a lot of educated people training. You can not wing it and expect to be successful in this game. You have to know horses, be organized, work long hours, manage money and deal with people well.

If you are that passionate about this subject, at least understand it.

The link you provide makes it seem that's exactly what they are doing...enhancing rather than normalizing. This Doc Brown sees abnormality where other doctors do not.

And as for not every trainer has crawled out from under a rock to hang a shingle...true...but there seem to be an awful lot who have, especially in the last 20 years or so...

You know what they say...it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch...how many bad apples are we up to now in the sport of racing?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by clocker7

"Anarchy" is overstating, almost comically.

Overstating is my biggest objection. Framing the issue with breathless terms defeats anything reasonable that opponents might say. I'll gladly concede that the situation is bittersweet. But saying that is is all sour is a non-starter.

Not overstating it at all. We now see all sorts of people coming out and telling it like it is on the backside. Codes of silence abound. Nobody rats anyone out. So you can just imagine what is allowed to go on undetected.

If you can get away with it, and there is no test for it, a LOT of trainers WILL use it...

You have relatively new trainers obtaining ungodly hit rates....it's obscene. It's anarchy as much as it is anything else.

The state is helpless to stop it. The racing office doesn't care as long as the entry box fills. And stewards are often times a joke.

The bullshit that bettors have had to put up with...from cheating horsemen to tote vulnerabilities to outrageous takeout...this sport should have been dead and buried a long time ago.

It still can be saved...but not by folks who think the problem isn't all that serious.

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Not overstating it at all. We now see all sorts of people coming out and telling it like it is on the backside. Codes of silence abound. Nobody rats anyone out. So you can just imagine what is allowed to go on undetected.

If you can get away with it, and there is no test for it, a LOT of trainers WILL use it...

You have relatively new trainers obtaining ungodly hit rates....it's obscene. It's anarchy as much as it is anything else.

The state is helpless to stop it. The racing office doesn't care as long as the entry box fills. And stewards are often times a joke.

The bullshit that bettors have had to put up with...from cheating horsemen to tote vulnerabilities to outrageous takeout...this sport should have been dead and buried a long time ago.

It still can be saved...but not by folks who think the problem isn't all that serious.

You have the power to walk away and never bet again.

OTOH, the other posters here have come to grips that life is not perfect and that the entertainment factor is worthwhile. As I said before, the majority of horseplayers realize the downsides, yet agree to pursue their pleasure. Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.

I may be a reformer, but I'm a reformer that's sharp enough to make sure I'm providing links to DVM reports and data from vet school studies on the affects of thyroxine/thyroid concerns in HORSES, those that the discussion has related to.

Rather than providing links that pertain to thyroxine/thyroid concerns and questionable doping in HUMANS. In this case, 15 elite Olympic athletes, the practice, and the opinion of one physician in North America.

Yep. Bravo. But maybe try reading the links (details) before hitting submit. Its always good when troops call for backup.

Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.

So far, you've missed a lot of detail, counselor. So for this reason, my money? I wouldn't have you on retainer.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by clocker7

You have the power to walk away and never bet again.

OTOH, the other posters here have come to grips that life is not perfect and that the entertainment factor is worthwhile. As I said before, the majority of horseplayers realize the downsides, yet agree to pursue their pleasure. Where I come in is to give them that choice, and to fight the banning crowd with the aggressiveness that they pose.

Nobody here is part of the banning crowd.

And more and more people ARE choosing to walk away. That's been a major problem over the past decade.

PERCEPTION when it comes to a game that allows wagering IS EVERYTHING.

Racing's PERCEPTION has always been not so great. Yet, it has persevered, I guess giving horsemen and those in charge a sense of invulnerability.

Not many people here are fans of PETA. However, they are even less fans of the current state of the game that we love. So if ANYTHING gets the industry to WAKE THE HELL UP and start taking care of itself (or even gets some other entity/gov't to take care of it for them), it is a GOOD THING, even if it comes in the form of PETA.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by clocker7

The Jockey Club came into existence in early 1894, proposed as being an anti-dote to all of the ills of horseracing. The members themselves offered themselves as the answer to all of the critics inside and outside of the sport. Their strategy was to parry the legal and political onslaught, and to appease where they could. They argued that a central authority could seize the reins, clean up the mess, while fending off the actual haters and sworn enemies.

Well, history proved the folly of that approach. Their foes were jihadists and were relentless. Even though assuming more powers than any czar, the sport was abolished in their region only 14 years later. It took years of backtracking, hard labor, and sensible & measured regulation by individual states to reverse their ignominious failure and to defeat those who sought instant purity (where it never exists anyway).

So here we are in 2014, facing even lesser issues, but dealing with those portraying them as cataclysmic. And retracing the same pathetic steps of some Neville Chamberlain-type ancestors who thought they had all the answers, too.

I have approached this sport with eyes-wide-open for over 40 years, knowing full well that cheaters abound. But also with the sophistication that chasing utopia is a fool's errand.

You cannot, in good faith, acknowledge that "cheaters abound" in this game...while also supporting the view that the game is a "net positive". Where is the positive net if indeed "cheaters abound"?

This is, after all, a GAMBLING game...and we all know -- or SHOULD know -- that cheating cannot be tolerated in a gambling game. A gambling game is DIMINISHED when cheating is discovered in its midst...and either the cheating is identified and properly dealt with -- or the game eventually perishes. Horse racing is no exception.

The problem is the very thought that a gambling game can still be considered a "net positive"...even though "cheaters abound". We are somehow supposed to take comfort in the thought that "not all the trainers are cheating".

I've asked this question several times before, and I've never gotten an answer...so I'll ask it one more time:

We enter a poker room...and are informed at the door that there is some "cheating" going on there. But we are also quickly told not to worry excessively about it, because "most of the players there are honest". Would we ever consider taking a seat at one of the tables?