"Trainerspeak" on the record

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Why not be specific? You want to make negative generalizations on a subject but then when I bring up a real circumstance that makes sense you don't want to be specific? What are you asking for? A $300 vet bill times 40 to treat ulcers? Are you a horse person? I would think not because we all should have a medicine chest of prescription meds because there is no horse ambulance you call 911 for. We keep banamine for colic, bute for fevers, tranquilizers for god knows what comes up. If you call a vet for colic and they are an hour away they will tell you to give banamine and possibly tranquilizers the horse to prevent a torsion if it's real bad. Now his the heck are these things going to be handy if things are the way you want it? They won't, according to you I would need a vet consultation and script which takes lots of time. The horse would be DEAD in your world.

This is an example of how bending to public perception that is not reality is BAD and potentially deadly to horses. The answer is to educate, not have a knee jerk reaction to someone that has never been on the end of a lead shank of a real racehorse.

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.

Horses are different than people. They don't have access to a hospital like people . It is usually hours away. They also don't have access to a drug store of effective over the counter meds. Everything, with the exception of aspirin and a couple other things like ulcer guard is prescription. Yes, you can go to walmart and buy boxes and boxes of Tagamet and use it on your horse. But the vet can give you apple flavored horse medicine that actually gets in them. I'm also sure your not going to have a circumstance where you have to tranquilizer your kid because he's going to kill himself and others. What if I get a flat on my trailer and my horse starts thrashing around? Ever been in a trailer when a horse does that? Very dangerous. You bet I'm gonna wish I had something with me to tranq him.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

Then why is a prescription needed for these drugs? It makes no sense.

And thank you for listening. It is frustrating for horseman that want the best for their horses to be accused of wrongdoing. When I first started training, I had a perception that a lot of trainers were clueless and used horses as machines blah blah blah. Guess what, I realized that isn't true, most are great horseman with a good eye that know how to take care of a horse. Once I got my butt kicked a few times and saw how awesome their horses looked my goal was to do the same

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

And thank you for listening. It is frustrating for horseman that want the best for their horses to be accused of wrongdoing. When I first started training, I had a perception that a lot of trainers were clueless and used horses as machines blah blah blah. Guess what, I realized that isn't true, most are great horseman with a good eye that know how to take care of a horse. Once I got my butt kicked a few times and saw how awesome their horses looked my goal was to do the same

OK, this is all fair enough. I'm no fan of Lasix. I've made that clear many times. I was glad to see McPeek speak against it. So many horsemen just tow the company line without being honest it gets frustrating. Are there worse things than Lasix? Of course, much worse.

As I've said numerous times, my biggest problem with the video is way a medication was used not for its intended purpose, but to increase metabolism. That is strictly for performance enhancement. That kind of stuff is never going to fly, but seems to be acceptable in the industry. Why? That can't be tolerated. While a drug may be legal, using for a purpose other than what it is intended for should be illegal. There is no way to shine a nice light on that one for the public. That is, plain and simple, abusing an animal. And, it is in the video for all to see.

Baffert already admitted to doing the exact same thing and likely killed seven horses because of it. Absolutely zero punishment was meted out. When stuff like that happens, and in this case it was a top trainer in the game doing it, I get leery of trainers thinking they are vets. The video points out this was hardly isolated. Word travels on the backside, and another trainer (I'm sure MANY were) was doing the same thing on the opposite coast.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

OK, this is all fair enough. I'm no fan of Lasix. I've made that clear many times. I was glad to see McPeek speak against it. So many horsemen just tow the company line without being honest it gets frustrating. Are there worse things than Lasix? Of course, much worse.

As I've said numerous times, my biggest problem with the video is way a medication was used not for its intended purpose, but to increase metabolism. That is strictly for performance enhancement. That kind of stuff is never going to fly, but seems to be acceptable in the industry. Why? That can't be tolerated. While a drug may be legal, using for a purpose other than what it is intended for should be illegal. There is no way to shine a nice light on that one for the public. That is, plain and simple, abusing an animal. And, it is in the video for all to see.

Baffert already admitted to doing the exact same thing and likely killed seven horses because of it. Absolutely zero punishment was meted out. When stuff like that happens, and in this case it was a top trainer in the game doing it, I get leery of trainers thinking they are vets. The video points out this was hardly isolated. Word travels on the backside, and another trainer (I'm sure MANY were) was doing the same thing on the opposite coast.

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

Well, they were apparently ok with it in California.

You are right that there are two kinds of people. Unfortunately for the ones in the former camp, until something is done about this kind of stuff, there will only be one camp that the public cares about...the latter.

The cat is out of the bag. It is time to enact some changes.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I don't know anyone in the industry that is ok with the thyro l thing. Some people have said its legal but that doesn't mean they agree with it. The commissions have to act on that now though. There are two types of people, those that are appalled by this news and those that are thinking "I better go get some for my horses because other guys are using it "

Delaware, you can't have the conversation work two ways. You don't know anyone that is ok with it. But, for those who've said its legal, why don't they agree with it? Let's revisit a term you spoke of.

I learned this term the other day-False Dilemma-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

Ok, so, its deemed legal where, and by whom, in the administration of its use in race horses? Is it in the RMTC journal of regulations? (I haven't had time to read all 61 pages.)

If its legal, then this means, its not illegal. Either it is, or it isn't. Its not complex. In terms of "false dilemma", saying its legal indicates one is comfortable with its use and affects. This is not at all different from stating, "yes, its fine to alter the metabolism of all racehorses in the barn." As was Baffert's case.

This is wrong, Delaware. This is what is killing the sport. You say thyroxine is not testable. I'll say, but oh yes it is. Tested in humans, everyday, you can count on it being testable (evidence of elevation by blood draw) in equines. In all honesty, if found in a trainer's barn? The trainer should be fined and given a mighty long vacation.

[Grits]

One other thing, Dela., I should be up front for disclosure. I've never lead horses to or from the track. I've never trained them. ... Since the 90s, I've spent more hours, though, than I can tell you at the rail for morning workouts at Keeneland, and at their race meets daily. And I've done the same at Belmont and Saratoga.

I don't want to see my sport die.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

Delaware, you can't have the conversation work two ways. You don't know anyone that is ok with it. But, for those who've said its legal, why don't they agree with it? Let's revisit a term you spoke of.



Ok, so, its deemed legal where, and by whom, in the administration of its use in race horses? Is it in the RMTC journal of regulations? (I haven't had time to read all 61 pages.)

If its legal, then this means, its not illegal. Either it is, or it isn't. Its not complex. In terms of "false dilemma", saying its legal indicates one is comfortable with its use and affects. This is not at all different from stating, "yes, its fine to alter the metabolism of all racehorses in the barn." As was Baffert's case.

This is wrong, Delaware. This is what is killing the sport. You say thyroxine is not testable. I'll say, but oh yes it is. Tested in humans, everyday, you can count on it being testable (evidence of elevation by blood draw) in equines. In all honesty, if found in a trainer's barn? The trainer should be fined and given a mighty long vacation.

Since when does saying something is legal or not illegal mean you agree with it? I don't make the rules. You really put a lot of thought into conjuring that up. The substance is naturally occurring in the horses body, so you would not know whether the horse was hyperthyroid naturally or due to supplementation. They would have to have a baseline on the horse for anyone to get in trouble. I may be mistaken but I also think you have to fast for thyroid tests. There are an infinite amount of naturally occurring substances that could possibly be used for performance enhancement. They are currently working on peptides and have announced that a finding will be a class 1 violation, although I'm not aware of a test. The rmtc will have to come up with a solution for this, maybe they are working on it now. The only way to classify it as illegal now is as a stimulant which is dicey as it can be legitimately used to regulate. They can also regulate its use via barn search and demand evidence via blood test as proof. I don't know, call the rmtc and freak out, don't bother me. And don't put words in my mouth that I'm ok with it, I've stated I'm not umpteen times.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

One other thing, Dela., I should be up front for disclosure. I've never lead horses to or from the track. I've never trained them. ... Since the 90s, I've spent more hours, though, than I can tell you at the rail for morning workouts at Keeneland, and at their race meets daily. And I've done the same at Belmont and Saratoga.

I don't want to see my sport die.

I can appreciate your passion for the sport. I too do not want it to die. But why don't you open up your mind a little and at least take away a little something from someone who cares about their horses and trains them every day (me). We are on the same team here.

[taxicab]

This is interesting reading.
They have it right.
Parts 4 through 10 hit the nail on the head.


http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-4.php

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Since when does saying something is legal or not illegal mean you agree with it? I don't make the rules. You really put a lot of thought into conjuring that up. The substance is naturally occurring in the horses body, so you would not know whether the horse was hyperthyroid naturally or due to supplementation. They would have to have a baseline on the horse for anyone to get in trouble. I may be mistaken but I also think you have to fast for thyroid tests. There are an infinite amount of naturally occurring substances that could possibly be used for performance enhancement. They are currently working on peptides and have announced that a finding will be a class 1 violation, although I'm not aware of a test. The rmtc will have to come up with a solution for this, maybe they are working on it now. The only way to classify it as illegal now is as a stimulant which is dicey as it can be legitimately used to regulate. They can also regulate its use via barn search and demand evidence via blood test as proof. I don't know, call the rmtc and freak out, don't bother me. And don't put words in my mouth that I'm ok with it, I've stated I'm not umpteen times.

Whoa, come unglued often? I just used your little analogy, "false dilemma," that YOU threw out prior.

You've barked up the wrong tree this time. I don't freak out. I'm as steady and determined as a stone wall. This is a legitimate concern for anyone caring for, and anyone wagering on horses. And you're smarting a** off? Real professional.

You're all over the map. Winging it because you're not a veterinarian just as 99.9% of trainers are not. Everything you've stated above, anyone would know. A baseline? No joke. So would any other test requiring a starting point for the presence of quantifiable level.

Yes. You are mistaken. There is no fasting required for testing of the thyroid gland or its function. I'm positive of this fact. Here's a few more facts to educate you.

I'm done with you. You can offer nothing that would interest me further. EOC.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/103...ands-in-horses

The implications of low thyroid hormone concentration

"There are no scientific studies to support the assertion that low thyroid hormone concentrations negatively impact the health of horses or that supplementation is necessary," says Nicholas Frank, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine.

And Franks is not alone in this view. Betta Breuhaus, MS, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the College of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State University, addressed the American Association of Equine Practitioners and explained, "Horses with clinical signs or syndromes traditionally associated with hypothyroidism often have normal thyroid function.

"Thyroid hormone status," adds Breuhaus, "should be carefully evaluated, and other potential endocrine or metabolic problems should be ruled out before a horse is placed on long-term thyroid hormone supplementation."

But what about those low thyroid hormone concentrations often found on blood tests? This is part of the hypothyroidism myth, according to Frank. "The detection of low levels of thyroid hormones in the blood is not the same as hypothyroidism," he says. "The assays used to measure T3 and T4 concentrations are well established and accurate, and the hormones are relatively stable in serum. However, the major issue with measuring thyroid hormones is that concentrations vary over time and within the same individual horse and respond to many different environmental and medical conditions."

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

Whoa, come unglued often? I just used your little analogy, "false dilemma," that YOU threw out prior.

You've barked up the wrong tree this time. I don't freak out. I'm as steady and determined as a stone wall. This is a legitimate concern for anyone caring for, and anyone wagering on horses. And you're smarting a** off? Real professional.

You're all over the map. Winging it because you're not a veterinarian just as 99.9% of trainers are not. Everything you've stated above, anyone would know. A baseline? No joke. So would any other test requiring a starting point for the presence of quantifiable level.

Yes. You are mistaken. There is no fasting required for testing of the thyroid gland or its function. I'm positive of this fact. Here's a few more facts to educate you.

I'm done with you. You can offer nothing that would interest me further. EOC.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/103...ands-in-horses

Ummm, I think you are freaking out right now.... And I agree with you that talking to you is like talking to a wall. But, Thank you for proving my point. Your link states "concentrations vary over time and within the same individual horse and respond to many different environmental and medical conditions". Sooooo, how do they take an elevated test in a post race sample to prove it was administered and not natural? Levels also change over the course of the day. This is possibly why they have not offered a solution involving testing as it is currently done. If you are going to regulate this you have to do it right or it is a waste of time. The commissions would lose an appeal.

I mean, human physicians can't even agree on normal thyroid levels and there is much more research than in horses. The same dilemna exists in human sports as there is a doctor that will diagnose hypothyroidism so treatment is considered to normalize rather than enhance. Read the conclusion of this story...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...nhancing-drug/

My reference to baselines was for the same horse during training and after a race. You ask if other testing requires a baseline. Well no, because a horse doesn't have bute naturally circulating in its body. So the baseline would be zero. This subject comes up often relating to blood gas testing as some horses can naturally have high levels.

Not every trainer crawled out from under a rock and hung a shingle out. There are a lot of educated people training. You can not wing it and expect to be successful in this game. You have to know horses, be organized, work long hours, manage money and deal with people well.

If you are that passionate about this subject, at least understand it.

[rastajenk]

The thyroid thing sounds very similar to TCO2. A lot of time and effort has been expended in establishing allowable levels and best testing methods, but the payoff has been almost beyond minimal. The value of testing as a deterrent is hard to quantify, but higher than allowable levels are rare. It's easier for a horse whose normal, or baseline, value is on the higher end of the range of normalcy to naturally go a little higher and be subject to a pre- or post-race penalty than it is for one on the low end of the normalcy range. Not only is it inherently unfair, there is no way to correlate the value of a fraction of a millimole to potential performance enhancement anyway. And yet it's part of the routine.

I can imagine thyroid testing going through a similar process, where science and due process meet and greet.

[clocker7]

Thank you, delawaretrainer, for taking the time to explain a complex matter and removing much of the mystery. If we only had to rely upon the linked materials posted by passionate reformers, then we would be getting only a fraction of the details.

Bravo, and please keep up the hard work. Too many industry people are unnecessarily wilting under fire, and trying to appease the unappeasible.