"Trainerspeak" on the record

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Ok, did you read the list of medications? Do you know what they are? None of them are in the list because they are to have any effect on raceday with the exception of LASIx. It can also be argued that joint injections can help horses for months. The 24 drugs can be found in a post race sample but not in a concentration that would effect pain or performance on race day. The list includes NSAIDs, tranquilizers, muscle relaxers, etc. that way, you can treat horses that tie up, tranq horses that need stitches, block horses for diagnostics, etc which are all things that will need to be done in the life of an average racing stable. Thresholds are necessary as these meds may be detectable for weeks after administration, long after they have any effects. As testing continues to get more sophisticated, the limit of detection will be smaller, hence the thresholds which should be constant.

Thank you for your reply, yes I did read the medications and I'm aware of all of the benefits of injecting horses joints. I understand, this isn't a revelation. I'm aware, too, as Tom notes, giving a horse time off for the maladies that it may be plagued by is beneficial. I believe this is the hallmark of a fine horseman.

If any argument has been made in the compilation of this list it is "why just 24?". Let me give you an example why. There are many medications for ulcers including ranitidine, sucralfate, cimetidine and omeprazole. But only one is on the list, the one that cost over $30 per day. Cheaper alternatives can cost a couple of dollars per day. So you can imagine that horseman might find the list limiting when attempting to take care of their horses. Yet, if people like you hear a horseman say they need to expand the list you accuse them of being drug dependent amongst other things.

In your last sentence, I'm sorry but you're exaggerating, and appear in denial that we currently have a problem in what we are choosing to put in the guts of horses in order to keep them racing, providing income for trainers and purse money for owners.

In reality we know we can keep more horses ulcer free if the cheaper options were allowed. That list may expand based upon what I have explained so don't be shocked. It is an attempt at uniformity so horseman can stay within the rules, not cheat.

Ok, like it or not, when drug companies bring a drug to market, for a long period of time they have the patent on that drug, and for good reason. They took on all the R & D. When that patent expires, that drug is then able to be produced in every corner of the world, including conditions in 3rd world countries that are unsanitary, and unfathomable in regard to quality control, all under absolutely no FDA approval or guidelines. So, consequently, sure, animals like humans, can be dosed with cheaper generics. But, you and I have no assurance that we, or the animals in our care, are getting the exact same drug in its prescribed dosage level. This has been proven, documented. Cheaper doesn't always create a better outcome especially for a horse trainer or a veterinarian, neither of whom have a degree in pharmacology. Ever had your physician phone your pharmacist to ask HIS/HER opinion on exactly which medication may bring about the best response to the problem presented? I have. Both professionals rely on one another's expertise.

You also mention differences in labs...do you know that laboratory accreditation is part of the adoption of the rules? Some jurisdictions have changed who they contract to comply. So I'm not sure what you point is on that.

I've provided links to the RMTC, but I'm sorry, maybe you can help me because I've not, that I can see, referred to labs. Though, yes, the question was asked in the linked Q & A regarding funding within states. Surely, everyone understands that these facilities must be accredited, given most entities in the field of medicine require such.

Thank you for the exchange.

[taxicab]

Let's take a closer look at a few of the permitted medications off of the link Grits posted......and what effect the meds can have on a horse.

Phenylbutazone:
Bute is an anti-inflammatory used to control pain. It is injected intravenously.

Flunixin:
An anti-inflammatory that works faster than phenylbutazone.

Methylprednisolone:
A strong cortisone injected into the joints to fight arthritis and degenerative joint disease.

Three examples were used:
An anti-inflammatory used to control pain....... that would be a painkiller or a pain reliever.

And an anti-inflammatory that works faster than the PB.....why does a horse need such a fast acting pain blocker/killer ?
Flunixin is the drug that got RX Rudy suspended(more than once?) by the powers that be in New York.
I mean if Rudy is using it.....nothing sneaky going on there.

Methylpprednisolone.....
The horse already has a pre existing arthritic and degenerative joint condition and a cortisone shot is administered directly into the horses joint.
Yeah, that sounds harmless for a race horse.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

Then you should have went to veterinary school I guess. I mean really, I don't want to go to the doctor every time I need a prescription, but I do.

Ok, do you realize that in some cases we treat as a form of diagnosis with our vets blessing? For example, scoping for ulcers is stressful for the horse and expensive. The camera has to go all the way into the stomach. So, the usual course of action is to start treatment and watch for changes in behavior like cleaning up the feed tub better. So, I have to have a vet bill to do this? What if I want to use preventive for every horse in the barn? Do I need to use a separate bottle for each one? That is totally dumb. This was brought up in the Peta video and is an example of where they showed a lack of understanding between good and bad.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by taxicab

Let's take a closer look at a few of the permitted medications off of the link Grits posted......and what effect the meds can have on a horse.

Phenylbutazone:
Bute is an anti-inflammatory used to control pain. It is injected intravenously.

Flunixin:
An anti-inflammatory that works faster than phenylbutazone.

Methylprednisolone:
A strong cortisone injected into the joints to fight arthritis and degenerative joint disease.

Three examples were used:
An anti-inflammatory used to control pain....... that would be a painkiller or a pain reliever.

And an anti-inflammatory that works faster than the PB.....why does a horse need such a fast acting pain blocker/killer ?
Flunixin is the drug that got RX Rudy suspended(more than once?) by the powers that be in New York.
I mean if Rudy is using it.....nothing sneaky going on there.

Methylpprednisolone.....
The horse already has a pre existing arthritic and degenerative joint condition and a cortisone shot is administered directly into the horses joint.
Yeah, that sounds harmless for a race horse.

In one of my responses I mentioned that an exception to the things that wouldn't help on race day are joint injections. They have pushed back the withdrawal period on them especially depo which is the one that will have a negative effect if overused. They can be a very good thing for the horse especially if hyluronic acid is used (sounds bad but it is like taking thin joint fluid out and adding fresh viscous liquid that cushions the joint). They can be overdone and I think that when multiple trainers claim horses and all use cortisone it has a negative effect on the horse. I also believe that it alters the horses chemistry so when you stop the horse has trouble metabolically (my opinion). So, in the wrong hands they can be overused to the detriment of the horse. There is a lot of attention around vet record transfer to help with this, including a new process in Ny. The timing between injection and race has been pushed back a couple times.

As far as ban amine goes , I believe it can't be used closer than 48 in the new rules. Therefore I don't use it. I could be wrong but I think NY was 24 when that happened to Rudy. After his second one I stopped believing he was doing it on purpose, he's not stupid. Therefore giving it 48 hrs is a waste of money. Bute is 24 but I have been advised to do 36 to be safe. Again probably a waste of money for ridding a horse of pain.

[Delawaretrainer]

Grits, not all labs are accredited to the degree required by the new uniform rules. There is a large document describing everything they need to do to comply . I'm sure the document is on the rmtc website somewhere. Although accredited in some way, these labs may have been using different equipment and techniques so there was no uniformity.

Also, you misunderstand my explanation of only one option being available to horseman within a class. It is not a matter of brand vs generic. They are completely different drugs. I can already legally use generic gastoguard (omeprazole). This drops the price from 36 per day to sometimes 10-25. The other options are a couple of dollars a day. Gastoguard is considered the best for healing ulcers, however, the others are very effective at preventing them. A common strategy would be to use gastriguard for a few weeks to heal, then switch over to another med for maintenance. So......we can't do that, it's gastriguard or nothing. This restrictive on does nothing to help horses. But, it's not something that is so major to me, but it is an example of how 24 drugs is not a lot.

I do not expect everyone to think everything is great. My point is that many of you are harping on the wrong things. Figure out what these guys are doing that makes them magicians. Trust me it's not bute or anything they know will be tested for and measured. They will never fix this problem with just post race testing.

[Mineshaft]

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Grits, not all labs are accredited to the degree required by the new uniform rules. There is a large document describing everything they need to do to comply . I'm sure the document is on the rmtc website somewhere. Although accredited in some way, these labs may have been using different equipment and techniques so there was no uniformity.

Also, you misunderstand my explanation of only one option being available to horseman within a class. It is not a matter of brand vs generic. They are completely different drugs. I can already legally use generic gastoguard (omeprazole). This drops the price from 36 per day to sometimes 10-25. The other options are a couple of dollars a day. Gastoguard is considered the best for healing ulcers, however, the others are very effective at preventing them. A common strategy would be to use gastriguard for a few weeks to heal, then switch over to another med for maintenance. So......we can't do that, it's gastriguard or nothing. This restrictive on does nothing to help horses. But, it's not something that is so major to me, but it is an example of how 24 drugs is not a lot.

I do not expect everyone to think everything is great. My point is that many of you are harping on the wrong things. Figure out what these guys are doing that makes them magicians. Trust me it's not bute or anything they know will be tested for and measured. They will never fix this problem with just post race testing.

Bingo we have a winner.............



You are correct everyone is harping on bute, banamine,injections, Gastroguard, clenbuterol, Thyroid L when all these things are legal in horse racing. Its not these things people its something else and unless they start testing for it it wont ever change.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Ok, do you realize that in some cases we treat as a form of diagnosis with our vets blessing? For example, scoping for ulcers is stressful for the horse and expensive. The camera has to go all the way into the stomach. So, the usual course of action is to start treatment and watch for changes in behavior like cleaning up the feed tub better. So, I have to have a vet bill to do this? What if I want to use preventive for every horse in the barn? Do I need to use a separate bottle for each one? That is totally dumb. This was brought up in the Peta video and is an example of where they showed a lack of understanding between good and bad.

How do you get a vets blessing without at least some consultation? If a trainer is doing it based on experience, that just doesn't fly. Trainers should not be treating horses with drugs without at least consulting a vet, and yes, paying a fee. How do you even get the drugs without doing so? That, I'm sorry, is a problem. It will always look bad, and frankly, is bad.

As for preventative medicines, what exactly is being prevented? Lasix somehow went from a drug to help control bleeding with proven bleeders to one used to prevent bleeding in nearly every horse that runs. I don't trust meds that are used as preventative, I've seen where that leads.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

How do you get a vets blessing without at least some consultation? If a trainer is doing it based on experience, that just doesn't fly. Trainers should not be treating horses with drugs without at least consulting a vet, and yes, paying a fee. How do you even get the drugs without doing so? That, I'm sorry, is a problem. It will always look bad, and frankly, is bad.

As for preventative medicines, what exactly is being prevented? Lasix somehow went from a drug to help control bleeding with proven bleeders to one used to prevent bleeding in nearly every horse that runs. I don't trust meds that are used as preventative, I've seen where that leads.

Well if you have an issue with a trainer having a program to prevent and treat ulcers, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. It is a total waste of time for me to even talk about it if you don't get it. Ulcers are present in most racehorses. Omeprazole is Prilosec used in humans. Ranitidine is Zantac. Cimetidine is Tagamet. I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy the fact that there is any wrongdoing in having a general program for ulcers in a racehorse. People do this with riding horses all the time. Ulcer guard is the same thing as gastriguard but over the counter. Vets can help us come up with this program but it is not necessary to consult the vet on every horse. If you have an issue with this I'm sorry, nothing I can do. But I would suggest you put your energy into opposing something that doesnt helps horses, not create boundaries to prevent horses from getting relief from a common painful problem.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Mineshaft

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

Thank you Mineshaft, finally someone who is the voice of reason. I think they should be asking the committees that designed the withdrawal times of these drugs if it allows for pain management on raceday. I'm sure they will say no. The levels are measured in millionths and trillionths of a gram. ( pictograms).

Some guys still use them as a prerace but I feel that as withdrawal times were pushed back many are abstaining. Also the two week withdrawal time basically means you can't use it if your horse is running regularly.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Well if you have an issue with a trainer having a program to prevent and treat ulcers, there is nothing I can say to change your mind. It is a total waste of time for me to even talk about it if you don't get it. Ulcers are present in most racehorses. Omeprazole is Prilosec used in humans. Ranitidine is Zantac. Cimetidine is Tagamet. I'm sorry, I'm not going to buy the fact that there is any wrongdoing in having a general program for ulcers in a racehorse. People do this with riding horses all the time. Ulcer guard is the same thing as gastriguard but over the counter. Vets can help us come up with this program but it is not necessary to consult the vet on every horse. If you have an issue with this I'm sorry, nothing I can do. But I would suggest you put your energy into opposing something that doesnt helps horses, not create boundaries to prevent horses from getting relief from a common painful problem.

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Mineshaft

Banamine 48 hrs out is a waste of money and Bute 24 hrs out is a waste of money. Might as well pour it on the ground.


Banamine needs to be 24 hrs out and Bute 12-15 hrs out.

Thank you Mineshaft, finally someone who is the voice of reason. I think they should be asking the committees that designed the withdrawal times of these drugs if it allows for pain management on raceday. I'm sure they will say no. The levels are measured in millionths and trillionths of a gram. ( pictograms).

Some guys still use them as a prerace but I feel that as withdrawal times were pushed back many are abstaining. Also the two week withdrawal time on clenbuterol basically means you can't use it if your horse is running regularly.

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by cj

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.

You would be surprised at how some trainers are very good at vet subjects.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Mineshaft

You would be surprised at how some trainers are very good at vet subjects.

It doesn't matter. They aren't vets. That won't fly in the public's eye. And the public's eye is going to be on the sport a lot more closely now, you can count on it. You want to lose the slots money? Misuse of drugs is an easy target. Hell, the legislators don't need an excuse to take it away. It is already happening. But why make it easy? And it doesn't have to end with losing subsidies. The game can go away a lot easier than some people seem to realize.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

I'm not talking about specific drugs here. But in general, drugs are never going to be looked at as good by the public. And, without public approval, racing won't exist for long. You said prescription drugs. Trainers should not be diagnosing health issues and dispensing prescription drugs, period. That is my only point. I'm not getting into the pros and cons of specific prescription drugs.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust horsemen to be vets, nor should I. Vets go to school for a reason. It is MUCH easier to get a trainer's license. That doesn't make a trainer a vet.

Why not be specific? You want to make negative generalizations on a subject but then when I bring up a real circumstance that makes sense you don't want to be specific? What are you asking for? A $300 vet bill times 40 to treat ulcers? Are you a horse person? I would think not because we all should have a medicine chest of prescription meds because there is no horse ambulance you call 911 for. We keep banamine for colic, bute for fevers, tranquilizers for god knows what comes up. If you call a vet for colic and they are an hour away they will tell you to give banamine and possibly tranquilizers the horse to prevent a torsion if it's real bad. Now his the heck are these things going to be handy if things are the way you want it? They won't, according to you I would need a vet consultation and script which takes lots of time. The horse would be DEAD in your world.

This is an example of how bending to public perception that is not reality is BAD and potentially deadly to horses. The answer is to educate, not have a knee jerk reaction to someone that has never been on the end of a lead shank of a real racehorse.