Good Ole D Wayne Lukas

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

Some of his placements are a bit off. Broken Spell raced on dirt at Oaklawn once, and Cello, the full sister to Optimizer, did as well.

That's my whole point his placement of his horses is off way too much. For a trainer like him he spots his horses over there head way too many times than he should be.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

So, having said all that (which I could agree with in part), do you still want to make the case that Lukas' horsemanship is somehow deficient?

Depends on what your definition of "horsemanship" is.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Mineshaft

That's my whole point his placement of his horses is off way too much. For a trainer like him he spots his horses over there head way too many times than he should be.

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...

[Fastracehorse]

it was awesome because it was incredible how hard a knocker Oxbow was up until that point

the man is 78!

he was matter of fact about the win and actually had an aura of humility about him; he said he was up at 4:30 am tomorrow to ship Oxbow back to CD, lol

and the maniacal smile on Stevens face after the race; that's one for the ages

fffastt

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...

Looks like we will agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that..

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...

He earned his reputation as a HOF trainer by winning races and purse money, it had nothing to do with actual horse caring skills. Any human who won that many races, graded races and purse money would have been lauded as a "Great trainer" no matter what their skills at actual training happened to be.

As far as the salesmanship goes, let me talk about that again. A Large part of 'horsemanship' is knowing where to place your runners. If you buy dozens of expensive and well bred yearlings per year and just shoot for the sky with every one of them, of course you're going to hit a few homeruns, BUT, here's the question i'll ask....if he's such a great trainer and great horsemen, wouldnt he be able to know which horses deserve the shot and which ones do not? Anyone can enter every horse they train in the biggest race running that week, that takes zero skill...you would think that Lukas being such a great "horsemen" he would have insight to his horses that none of us are privy to...he knows which horses have breathing or bleeding problems, which horses are really fancy but lack heart and "try" and so on and so forth...yet, he enters horses and acts like he knows just as much as the guy in the grandstand with holes in his shoes.

What Lukases "resume" was before he became "Lukas" is certainly up for debate.....and you have to admit, he's an AMAZING salesmen, he's incredibly persuasive, he's the coach, so he knows all about motivational speeches and whatnut. He's well spoken, wears great suits, has awesome sunglasses and projects a "Presidential" image, he has great attention to detail, he's the first guy at the barns in the morning also.....so, you really can't say a large part of his success isnt due to all of that "non horsemen" stuff. He hires great assistants, has the best vets money can buy, spares no expense in hiring the best help and spares no expense in any other area.....combined that with the best bred horses at the sales, and how could you NOT win?

Part of being a "Great trainer" is entering horses where they belong....and if you have no clue where they belong, you enter in the highest class race you can and pray. Is that the type of trainer YOU would give horses to ? I guy who's entering and praying?

[wisconsin]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

He earned his reputation as a HOF trainer by winning races and purse money, it had nothing to do with actual horse caring skills. Any human who won that many races, graded races and purse money would have been lauded as a "Great trainer" no matter what their skills at actual training happened to be.

As far as the salesmanship goes, let me talk about that again. A Large part of 'horsemanship' is knowing where to place your runners. If you buy dozens of expensive and well bred yearlings per year and just shoot for the sky with every one of them, of course you're going to hit a few homeruns, BUT, here's the question i'll ask....if he's such a great trainer and great horsemen, wouldnt he be able to know which horses deserve the shot and which ones do not? Anyone can enter every horse they train in the biggest race running that week, that takes zero skill...you would think that Lukas being such a great "horsemen" he would have insight to his horses that none of us are privy to...he knows which horses have breathing or bleeding problems, which horses are really fancy but lack heart and "try" and so on and so forth...yet, he enters horses and acts like he knows just as much as the guy in the grandstand with holes in his shoes.

What Lukases "resume" was before he became "Lukas" is certainly up for debate.....and you have to admit, he's an AMAZING salesmen, he's incredibly persuasive, he's the coach, so he knows all about motivational speeches and whatnut. He's well spoken, wears great suits, has awesome sunglasses and projects a "Presidential" image, he has great attention to detail, he's the first guy at the barns in the morning also.....so, you really can't say a large part of his success isnt due to all of that "non horsemen" stuff. He hires great assistants, has the best vets money can buy, spares no expense in hiring the best help and spares no expense in any other area.....combined that with the best bred horses at the sales, and how could you NOT win?

Part of being a "Great trainer" is entering horses where they belong....and if you have no clue where they belong, you enter in the highest class race you can and pray. Is that the type of trainer YOU would give horses to ? I guy who's entering and praying?

You seem quite in the know.

Name 10 true horseman, fitting your definition as such and why. I know you'll come back and say this thread is about Lukas, so I dare you to open another thread with your top 10. Because we all want to know.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by wisconsin

You seem quite in the know.

Name 10 true horseman, fitting your definition as such and why. I know you'll come back and say this thread is about Lukas, so I dare you to open another thread with your top 10. Because we all want to know.

No. Please, no. I don't want to know, Wisconsin. I'm begging you. Don't ask him to do it. This screed was long enough. You have to realize if SRU were paid by the word for his opinions shared here, Bill Gates wouldn't be able to touch him on net worth. No way. ... You've outdone yourself with this one, SRU.

[Mineshaft]

SRU makes some good points some of which I agree with.

Look im not saying hes a bad trainer because hes not. All im saying he wants to dance every dance and sometimes he doesn't think of the horse when hes doing it. Putting that Maiden in a Gr 2 at the FG when the horse couldn't break his Maiden at Oaklawn was plain stupid.

[horses4courses]

What's the line on Strong Mandate being sound by year's end?
Anyone?

I'd make it -2.00 No

Hopefully, he'll be retired to stud by then with a relatively minor injury.

"Precocious 2yo that peaked at Saratoga, and just never trained on."
Hmmmm......

Anyone know what happened to that good turf horse Optimizer ?
They were running him about every month into the early summer when they finally realized the horse needed a break,
and wasn't performing.
Hmmmm.....

Nice horse....runs good on soft turf, too.
He's no Wise Dan , but who is?
I'd like to see him make it back to the races, or make a stallion.

D. Wayne Lukas.
Legendary HOF trainer? Yes.
Especially with deep pocket owners like the late Gene Klein around.
Do you have to like everything about his M.O. with horses?
I think not.

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by Grits

No. Please, no. I don't want to know, Wisconsin. I'm begging you. Don't ask him to do it. This screed was long enough. You have to realize if SRU were paid by the word for his opinions shared here, Bill Gates wouldn't be able to touch him on net worth. No way. ... You've outdone yourself with this one, SRU.

I've already cleaned my shoes after walking in his shit. I keep telling myself, "Never again." It's someone else's turn. Who's next?

[taxicab]

Will any trainer ever be able to duplicate this type of resume......

Kentucky Derby
Winning Colors (1988)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Grindstone (1996)
Charismatic (1999)

Preakness Stakes
Codex (1980)
Tank's Prospect (1985)
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Timber Country (1995)
Charismatic (1999)
Oxbow (2013)

Belmont Stakes
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Editor's Note (1996)
Commendable (2000)

Breeders' Cup Classic
Cat Thief (1999)

Breeders' Cup Distaff
Life's Magic (1985)
Lady's Secret (1986)
Sacahuista (1987)
Spain (2000)

Breeders' Cup Mile
Steinlen (1989)

Breeders' Cup Sprint
Gulch (1988)
Orientate (2002)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile
Capote (1986)
Success Express (1987)
Is It True (1988)
Timber Country (1994)
Boston Harbor (1996)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
Twilight Ridge (1985)
Open Mind (1988)
Flanders (1994)
Cash Run (1999)
Folklore (2005)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Sprint
Hightail (2012)

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

There's a subtle difference between babying horses, seeking logical challenges, and spotting your horses in off the wall spots where there have little chance of winning or where the races aren't part of some logical progression.

For example, I would argue that Wise Dan should start in a some 1m or 1 1/8M races on the turf again this year. Then they could take a shot in a couple of middle distance races on dirt and/or synthetic for a challenge. Depending on how he does, then they could consider either stretching him out on turf (1 1/4) or running in the BC Classic later in the year. But they could always fall back to the Turf Mile again if he disappoints or looks like he doesn't want to stretch out.

A guy like Lukas would probably start with the Donn. No matter what he does, Dubai at 10F on synth would be next. Even if he got buried in Dubai, he'd wind up in the Met next. Then he'd ship out west for some 1 1/4 turf race. Then he'd be in the Gold Cup on his way to the BC Classic or BC Turf Classic no matter how he handled dirt or distance previously.

Every once in awhile some horse is going to come along and be good enough and versatile enough to stand up to that lunacy, but he'd ruin a bunch of campaigns also.

The idea is to find a scenario that would give the horse a shot for extraordinary accomplishment, but in a more reasonable way.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

There's a subtle difference between babying horses, seeking logical challenges, and spotting your horses in off the wall spots where there have little chance of winning or where the races aren't part of some logical progression.

For example, I would argue that Wise Dan should start in a some 1m or 1 1/8M races on the turf again this year. Then they could take a shot in a couple of middle distance races on dirt and/or synthetic for a challenge. Depending on how he does, then they could consider either stretching him out on turf (1 1/4) or running in the BC Classic later in the year. But they could always fall back to the Turf Mile again if he disappoints or looks like he doesn't want to stretch out.

A guy like Lukas would probably start with the Donn. No matter what he does, Dubai at 10F on synth would be next. Even if he got buried in Dubai, he'd wind up in the Met next. Then he'd ship out west for some 1 1/4 turf race. Then he'd be in the Gold Cup on his way to the BC Classic or BC Turf Classic no matter how he handled dirt or distance previously.

Every once in awhile some horse is going to come along and be good enough and versatile enough to stand up to that lunacy, but he'd ruin a bunch of campaigns also.

The idea is to find a scenario that would give the horse a shot for extraordinary accomplishment, but in a more reasonable way.

I agree with this post.

And i'd like to talk about your last sentence, "in a more reasonable way" i think the concept of "reason" might be replaced with just knowing your horse better than the general public. Know the EXACT talent level of the horse and what that horse is capable of doing, which classes he's capable of running in successfully and so on and so forth. I don't think its a lot to ask to expect DWL to know enough about his horses to spot them properly, to know when "enough is enough" and to know which horses can't race at the highest levels of the game and which ones can.

When you dance every dance with every horse you're bound to hit a homerun once in a while....but how many do you have to ruin to hit the homerun and is it worth it.

[iceknight]

Originally Posted by taxicab

Will any trainer ever be able to duplicate this type of resume......

You forgot the Travers!
1991, 1995 and 2013 (wiki )