Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Handicapping Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 11-19-2013, 05:19 PM   #16
Al Gobbi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 626
Rep Power: 9 Al Gobbi is on a distinguished road
Oaklawn used to used the alternate finish line for 5 1/2 furlong races. They would start at the standard 6F spot and end at the 16th pole.

I think they stopped doing that around 2004-05.
Al Gobbi is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 05:28 PM   #17
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,062
Rep Power: 64 cj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to all
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Gobbi
Oaklawn used to used the alternate finish line for 5 1/2 furlong races. They would start at the standard 6F spot and end at the 16th pole.

I think they stopped doing that around 2004-05.
They still do for mile races.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 07:15 PM   #18
Bennie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 792
Rep Power: 11 Bennie is on a distinguished road
Don't you love it when they do that and the jock on your horse miss judges the finish line and stands up and gets nailed at the proper finish line by someone else
Bennie is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 07:47 PM   #19
MJC922
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 802
Rep Power: 6 MJC922 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Curious if people are aware of how these races are timed. I've heard a few explanations, but one thing I'm nearly certain of is these are not true times.

For example, for the 2f time in a 1m70y race, there is definitely not a timing pole at the point 2f from the start of the race, and the same goes for 4f, 6f, etc.
Not sure here, I don't have any inside detail on it. Been many years since I've been on track observing so I could be wrong, I'm almost sure I've seen a beam near the gate at these odd distances just like the others. So at a track like FL at 1-70 you have the beam tripped after the break and then at the wire we know it's tripped because that's a mile out so the 70 yard time should be known. From the gate then to the 3/4 pole would be a known time for the entire first quarter plus the 70 yards -- from there I suspect they just subtract. Didn't Ragozin say in his book that his team found one or two of the tracks were just using some constant number of seconds? It wasn't even the actual time for the 70, it was like 4 seconds no matter what. I forgot the details and don't want to misquote. Granted leaving the gate in a route I imagine it's 4.2 seconds an awful lot of the time but using a constant (if that's what they're doing anywhere) is just wrong.

Last edited by MJC922; 11-19-2013 at 07:49 PM.
MJC922 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #20
MJC922
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 802
Rep Power: 6 MJC922 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I didn't even know this was an issue.

Every time I read one of these threads about some issue with the timing of fractions and final times it pushes me further in the right direction of thinking looking at the quality of the horses in the field, watching the races, and looking at the charts is the better approach. Unfortunately, there are other issues that come up in that form of handicapping from time to time that make the times of race indispensable, if not always trustworthy. Tough game to be confident.
The timing issue is the only reason I walked away from it and have not regretted it but kudos to CJ for going to the trouble for his customers. I respect anyone who puts in the effort.
MJC922 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 08:42 PM   #21
delayjf
Registered User
 
delayjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Norfolk VA
Posts: 5,404
Rep Power: 23 delayjf will become famous soon enoughdelayjf will become famous soon enough
I know Santa Anita used to use an extra long run up in its mile races to add distance to the run to the first turn.
delayjf is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 08:51 PM   #22
proximity
Registered User
 
proximity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: pen
Posts: 4,004
Rep Power: 15 proximity will become famous soon enough
i always thought they had beams 70 yds before the poles that they could activate for these races???

next time i watch one live, i'll try and see if they put up the 1/4 time before they reach the 6f pole?????
proximity is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #23
wiffleball whizz
Dead money
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,838
Rep Power: 9 wiffleball whizz is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennie
Don't you love it when they do that and the jock on your horse miss judges the finish line and stands up and gets nailed at the proper finish line by someone else
Laurel has this also....actually they have 4 wires...2 on turf and 2 on dirt

The have red rights lit up on the wires they use for the race.....laurel park is good with that
__________________
Bustout degenerate gambler
wiffleball whizz is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 09:49 PM   #24
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,062
Rep Power: 64 cj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to all
Quote:
Originally Posted by delayjf
I know Santa Anita used to use an extra long run up in its mile races to add distance to the run to the first turn.
They still do, like a 1/4 furlong.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 09:50 PM   #25
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,062
Rep Power: 64 cj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to all
Quote:
Originally Posted by proximity
i always thought they had beams 70 yds before the poles that they could activate for these races???

next time i watch one live, i'll try and see if they put up the 1/4 time before they reach the 6f pole?????
They definitely do not have those 70 yards before each of the poles.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 10:00 PM   #26
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,062
Rep Power: 64 cj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to allcj is a name known to all
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC922
Not sure here, I don't have any inside detail on it. Been many years since I've been on track observing so I could be wrong, I'm almost sure I've seen a beam near the gate at these odd distances just like the others. So at a track like FL at 1-70 you have the beam tripped after the break and then at the wire we know it's tripped because that's a mile out so the 70 yard time should be known. From the gate then to the 3/4 pole would be a known time for the entire first quarter plus the 70 yards -- from there I suspect they just subtract. Didn't Ragozin say in his book that his team found one or two of the tracks were just using some constant number of seconds? It wasn't even the actual time for the 70, it was like 4 seconds no matter what. I forgot the details and don't want to misquote. Granted leaving the gate in a route I imagine it's 4.2 seconds an awful lot of the time but using a constant (if that's what they're doing anywhere) is just wrong.
I don't think there is consistency track to track. I know Will Rogers Downs shows the first fraction at times, the first 70 yards. I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on when I saw it at first.

I think like you they are using subtraction. Just time the start until the 1m pole then record the fractions like usual and must subtract the start. The difference, of course, is that you are getting a true "first 1/4", first "1/2", etc. You are getting the a made up fraction, from the 1m pole to the 3/4 pole for the first 1/4, and so on.

It isn't that big an issue, but how many people actually realize this is going on? I'm guessing slim and none, and comparing fractions at these distances to races at 1m 1/16 or 1m would be fraught with problems.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 11:03 PM   #27
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 16,038
Rep Power: 33 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
To create mystery. Most of the time a mile & 70 is run because the track configuration doesn't lend itself to a mile or a mile & 1/16 races. it is pretty hard to run both a mile and mile & 1/16 at most 6f tracks and is virtually impossible at 4F bull rings.
A mile and a sixteenth is a mile and 110 yards. If a track shouldn't be running a mile and 110 yard races, they probably shouldn't run a mile and 70 yard races either. 40 yards doesn't mean much to horses running at top speed.
Valuist is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 11:13 PM   #28
RXB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,787
Rep Power: 18 RXB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
To create mystery. Most of the time a mile & 70 is run because the track configuration doesn't lend itself to a mile or a mile & 1/16 races. it is pretty hard to run both a mile and mile & 1/16 at most 6f tracks and is virtually impossible at 4F bull rings.
If you're going to use a at somebody, especially one of the more reasonable people on the board, you might try making sure first that you're right. Do you not realize that 1-40/1-70 fall between a mile and 1 1/16?

They run 1-40/1-70 races at all sorts of mile tracks where they also run both 1m and 1 1/16. Just off of the top of my head: Parx, Aqueduct inner, Finger Lakes, Canterbury (both dirt and grass at Cby), Calder, Woodbine (2YO only), Mountaineer...
RXB is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-19-2013, 11:15 PM   #29
jballscalls
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,620
Rep Power: 16 jballscalls is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
They definitely do not have those 70 yards before each of the poles.
CJ,

we run mile and 70 races and do have 4 poles that are 70 yards before each quarter pole.

One of them is 40 yards past the 6.5 pole, one is 40 yards past 4.5 pole and one is 40 yards past 2.5 pole. and then of course the actual 70 yard from the wire one, which not only acts as a starting beam but also acts as the one mile fraction timer (its usually a shade over 4 seconds from 70 yard marker to finish line).

If I remember I'll take some pictures of the beams tomorrow before the races.
__________________
Check out my daily horse racing podcast The BARN at www.betamerica.com/barn

Last edited by jballscalls; 11-19-2013 at 11:16 PM. Reason: because i'm a moron and spelled "one" wrong
jballscalls is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-20-2013, 12:01 AM   #30
RXB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,787
Rep Power: 18 RXB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by RXB
I
They run 1-40/1-70 races at all sorts of mile tracks where they also run both 1m and 1 1/16. Just off of the top of my head: Parx, Aqueduct inner, Finger Lakes, Canterbury (both dirt and grass at Cby), Calder, Woodbine (2YO only), Mountaineer...
Wait, not Woodbine-- temporary brain freeze. They run 1 1/16 but not a mile, same as Hawthorne and Louisiana Downs. But Suffolk, Remington, Prairie Meadows, Sunland are others that come to mind that do the 1m-1/70-1 1/16 trio, too. If I checked through Equibase I might find even more. So track configuration is not usually the issue. The only place that I can think of where they run 1m-70y but not 1 1/16 due to configuration is on the grass course at Mountaineer.
RXB is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
How many U.S. tracks will be running full (8+ week) meetings in 2028?
0: We'll all be nuked by then - 5.66%
3 Votes
1-5 - 9.43%
5 Votes
6-10 - 18.87%
10 Votes
11-15 - 18.87%
10 Votes
16-20 - 9.43%
5 Votes
21 or more - 37.74%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 53
Non-members may not vote on this poll.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2018 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved -- Best Viewed in a modern browser @ 1280x720 Resolution Or Higher
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.