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Old 11-15-2013, 06:29 AM   #31
rastajenk
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I wonder how many times frog juice gets used and doesn't produce an enhanced performance. Or how many times it moves a sixth place horse up to fifth.

Jeff's idea of being stabled on track 72 hours out would kill shipping, which introduces uncertainty into the handicapping. Smaller fields of same ol' same ol' helps no one except those that want to kill the game off faster. I know he gets and deserves a lot of credit for thinking things through, but I think he missed on this one.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillriledup
Isnt there other ways to "stop" people who "win too much" other than going thru legal channels with doped blood and tainted urine? How about racing secretaries writing races only eligible for trainers who have less than a 20% winning percentage at that current meet? This way, owners and trainer who rarely win actually have some shot.
I wouldn't mind seeing some tracks provide a real incentive to run completely clean, no lasix, no bute or anything else. A possible way to fund that might be to withold a small percentage of the purse from those who win races on these (or any other) drugs.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
Professional sports is also a business and not a friendly game....but they have salary caps so there's some parity and everyone has a chance, its better for business.
Your going to sit here and tell me there's parity in any pro sports league
The Yankees, Red Sox, cardinals with a luxury tax dominate
The heat dominate
The Blackhawks, bruins, and a group of like 5 other teams stand out
The nfl comes the closest I guess but when was the last time the browns, bills, dolphins, rams, jaguars etc were relevant in jan/feb
Plus it's two different models of sports leagues/businesses
There's no salary cap in nascar, that's a much closer model and prior to the recession nascar had huge profitability and shrunk a bit with the market shrinking . So don't tell me parity is commonplace in sports and I really don't think it should be. If people want to spend money to make money that's their right and how can you possibly take away people's livings by evening up the game when they are playing by the book better than anyone else. E.g. (Cool chiropractic techniques, methods of feeding, how they use preventive medicine etc etc)
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:34 AM   #34
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We need people like Ben Jones, Jim Fitzsimmons, Eddie Arcaro, and Bill Shoemaker back in the racing world. Say what you want but those people were some of the best trainers and jockeys in the business. Just Saying
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:35 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillriledup
Isnt there other ways to "stop" people who "win too much" other than going thru legal channels with doped blood and tainted urine? How about racing secretaries writing races only eligible for trainers who have less than a 20% winning percentage at that current meet? This way, owners and trainer who rarely win actually have some shot.
This is one of your "brilliant" ideas that you'll spend five pages of posts defending, then by the 6th page of the thread you'll be arguing against yourself and saying it's dumb. You'll get 20 posts out of it though.
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:47 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingFan1992
We need people like Ben Jones, Jim Fitzsimmons, Eddie Arcaro, and Bill Shoemaker back in the racing world. Say what you want but those people were some of the best trainers and jockeys in the business. Just Saying
An admirable sentiment, sir. But drugging was SO widespread and accepted back in the day, that Johnny Loftus once stood before the stewards and alibied a Sir Barton loss by blaming the trainer, Hard Guy Bedwell, for putting him on a "cold" horse.

Reportedly, officials considered that reason enough to reprimand both Loftus AND Bedwell. The unwritten policy simply asked that a horseman be consistent- Either dope a horse ALL the time, or none of the time.

And, of course, relating to Ben Jones....the occasional inference that Citation was addicted to cocaine.

Last edited by mountainman; 11-15-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:40 PM   #37
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I never heard about Citation being addicted to cocaine. Ah Horse Racing. It is kinda hard to tell which stories are real and which ones are not. A lot of the stories are about people who are long dead and some people today just don't care. I was surprised when Penny Chenery came out saying that she had an affair with Lucien Laurin her trainer. She said that was forty years ago and she is 91 and just doesn't care anymore. I hear it all the time that "Secretariat was doped up on drugs or Man o' War's races were rigged" That is all just hear say. I could not attest to either one of those stories. More mud is flung off the track than on the track.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingFan1992
Ah Horse Racing. It is kinda hard to tell which stories are real and which ones are not.
For sure, pal.
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:02 PM   #39
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I wish that a group of good hearted people (Jockey, trainer, owner, breeder) would come along with a race horse that is not on any drugs and has absolutely no native dancer blood would come and win the triple crown. That would show everybody. The racing gods speak every year. They do not want a bunch of cheats and druggies in their exclusive club. (Depending on who you talk to the racing gods are a bunch of cheats and druggies.)
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
An admirable sentiment, sir. But drugging was SO widespread and accepted back in the day, that Johnny Loftus once stood before the stewards and alibied a Sir Barton loss by blaming the trainer, Hard Guy Bedwell, for putting him on a "cold" horse.

Reportedly, officials considered that reason enough to reprimand both Loftus AND Bedwell. The unwritten policy simply asked that a horseman be consistent- Either dope a horse ALL the time, or none of the time.

And, of course, relating to Ben Jones....the occasional inference that Citation was addicted to cocaine.
And according to Grace Jones Citation spent the last years of his life standing in line at Studio 54 but he was no longer on the list.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:06 PM   #41
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Hahahahahaha. If he was on cocaine nobody cares. Look what happened when that one guy came out saying the battle of the sexes with BJK and Bobby Riggs was fixed. Somebody said on youtube who cares that was 40 years ago and it's tennis.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
An admirable sentiment, sir. But drugging was SO widespread and accepted back in the day, that Johnny Loftus once stood before the stewards and alibied a Sir Barton loss by blaming the trainer, Hard Guy Bedwell, for putting him on a "cold" horse.

Reportedly, officials considered that reason enough to reprimand both Loftus AND Bedwell. The unwritten policy simply asked that a horseman be consistent- Either dope a horse ALL the time, or none of the time.

And, of course, relating to Ben Jones....the occasional inference that Citation was addicted to cocaine.
I know...people act as if this is some sort of new phenomenon, the drugging and juicing of racehorses.

As if steroids weren't available back in the days of Secretariat...I have news for people...humans were using steroids in the Olympics WAY BEFORE Secretariat was ever born...you draw your own conclusions.

The good old days are never as good as you remember them RacingFan1992.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:31 PM   #43
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To be honest with you I wasn't even born in the good ol' days. I have another 50 years before I can remember the good ol' days and then I will be in my 70's and I either won't remember or I just won't care. I actually think that Secretariat ran steroid free in the Belmont just because of his body. His huge heart he got from his mother by the way of her father. He had the pedigree for it. I am fond of his grandpappy Princequillo cause he was an endurance runner. Those are my thoughts. I rooted for Calidoscopio in the Brooklyn and the B.C. Marathon.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:49 PM   #44
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I agree. PED's in horse racing have been more widespread and have been around longer than most would care to admit.

That said, the world has moved on.

Mainstream sports: The Olympics, NCAA Track and Field, MLB, NFL, the NBA, etc. have moved on too. They haven't managed to eliminate PED's entirely from their sports but (at the very least) they are making a serious effort towards that goal and are doing it in a way that the general public can very clearly see.

By way of comparison racing refuses to move on. For whatever reason, racing's decision makers (leadership at horsemen's alphabet groups and track management) resist any and all efforts at change - ANY change.

As a result, racing has fallen so woefully far behind the times that it is no longer a mainstream sport.

If we ever want the public to accept racing as a mainstream sport again, at some point, we are going to have to embrace change and actually make a significant effort to eliminate PEDs from our sport.

Anything less than that will simply result in racing continuing its own (self made) downward spiral in terms of total customer spend on the product.


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Old 11-15-2013, 02:49 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJC922
I wouldn't mind seeing some tracks provide a real incentive to run completely clean, no lasix, no bute or anything else. A possible way to fund that might be to withhold a small percentage of the purse from those who win races on these (or any other) drugs.
I kind of like the idea. I like thinking outside the box and trying to come up with some incentives to run clean, because the current state of "drug testing" isnt working as well as it needs to work.
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