why the game doesn't grow handle - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

acorn54 · 05-13-2013, 11:37 AM

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

Dave Schwartz · 05-13-2013, 11:59 AM

If only the horsemen and track owners could be saved from themselves...

That was a great interview, BTW.

thaskalos · 05-13-2013, 12:23 PM

Jeff was a lot more reserved than I would have been...

Some_One · 05-13-2013, 12:25 PM

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points. It comes down to culture I think, and that Americans just find other forms of wagering more appealing to them. I say this based on my visit to Sha Tin and Happy Valley last week, and I'll use Happy Valley more specifically.

First of the HKJC has otb's everywhere, very accessible to place a bet without visiting the track (I would argue it's difficult in most of the US to do so). HKJC also has internet account wagering

What we consider PP's don't exist in HK, it's more Euro style summary form, no pace ratings and so on are easily available. But it appears their PP's are printed in the newspapers because for 1-2 days leading up to raceday, you saw people on the streets and trains looking over the upcoming races. You don't see that in the US

Takeout- As far as I know, they are similar, but HK does have a 10% rebate for losing tickets on tickets 1500 or higher.

Last minute changes- In HK, they have a term, the brown lamp, that's when a horses odds crash 50% or more and is highlighted in brown on the toteboard, it happens in the last minutes as the syndicate and illegal bookie money (offshore bookies laying off bets to get the rebate) comes in. I believe in my two visits it happened 6 times, 3 won, but Ive never seen or heard anyone complain

Horses retiring early - Not a HK problem as there is no breeding industry and every horse is usually gelded, but the US problem is just big in Australia with the recent retirement of All Too Hard. There needs to be more incentive to race and instead of breed, purses for G1's need to be a million minimum IMO

Costs - It costs 10 HKD to enter a track, if you take the trains to the track, it'll probably cost you about 30 HKD roundtrip. At HV, their big thing is the beer gardens on the apron, and before the rains came, it was packed, they also had various wine tastings setup in part of their France promotion and my partner and I took in 3 glasses each at ~70 HKD each and were more then happy to pay that too and we weren't the only ones for sure, even after the rains came.

As to Casinos ruling, Macau is across the bay (IMO it's Vegas without the fun of Vegas, very boring), but HK racing handle has been increasing the last couple of years, topping over 10 US$ Mill each race.

The game in the US needs to be more accessible, and more visible (aside from 2 minutes in May and 2 minutes in November), if someone gets involved, they should be able to easily find the information and the outlets they need to place a wager. The racetrack also needs to be an event, the boutique meet model has proven to be best, you can't expect a 20 or 30 something to go to the track everyday, but once a week is doable (so if it was me, with the soon to be vacant racedays that HOL currently has, should not be reassigned)

pondman · 05-13-2013, 02:16 PM

I'm more in fear of a consumer group than the complaints aired. Trying to remove uncertainty won't help this game. It will only decrease field sizes and payouts.

iceknight · 05-13-2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some_One

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points. It comes down to culture I think, and that Americans just find other forms of wagering more appealing to them. I say this based on my visit to Sha Tin and Happy Valley last week, and I'll use Happy Valley more specifically.

The game in the US needs to be more accessible, and more visible (aside from 2 minutes in May and 2 minutes in November), if someone gets involved, they should be able to easily find the information and the outlets they need to place a wager. The racetrack also needs to be an event, the boutique meet model has proven to be best, you can't expect a 20 or 30 something to go to the track everyday, but once a week is doable (so if it was me, with the soon to be vacant racedays that HOL currently has, should not be reassigned)

Not sure you mean in which manner, but the population density of Hong Kong island is 16390 /sq km while in the US (just for urban areas) it varies between 313 to 2705 /sq km.

That in itself make a huge huge difference in getting people to go to the track or having more otbs near them etc..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...es_urban_areas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Island

lamboguy · 05-13-2013, 02:45 PM

even with handles dropping the last few years, Twinspires has gone up in handle every year. there have been a few new states that now allow advanced deposit wagering. i know that this year Illinois is lost. but there are about 20 states that don't have account wagering now. 2 of those states will probably never get it, Utah and Hawaii. but the rest are still game. that is where the growth in handle could come from going forward. today racing is becoming a stay at home game with people sitting behind their screens.

Stillriledup · 05-13-2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acorn54

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

I dont understand how 'computer whales' are screwing over smaller bettors. Do you mean that they're just outhandicapping the smaller bettors and beating them fair and square? Not sure that gets filed under the 'screwing' part.

I do agree with most of the other stuff you said. Good points.

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acorn54

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

U nailed it.....admission takeout program cost beers and everything else is all you gotta look at....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken....

You walk in casino with 200 u got all your drinks and all overhead paid for before u make your first bet

You walk in the track with 200 after admission it's 196
After you buy a program it's now 190....4 beers it's now 165 a hot dog it's 160 parking 157 your first $20 bet your bankroll has now evaporated to $137!!!!!! That's why people don't go to the tracks anymore

You people that sit home on your computer and get your monster rebates don't see this.....the game is dead as a doornail and besides Saratoga delmar (I think oaklawn has good attendence) and a couple other tracks it's a done deal

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....

Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you

Example I lose 2000 at otb I get nothing in the mail 2 weeks later

I lose 2000 playing video poker/slots in 2 weeks if getting free $25 in slot play free buffet daily free parking free dining $30 dining credits and then 2 free nights every week in Atlantic city during the summer...... Not to mention free shows and everything else.....

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

acorn54 · 05-13-2013, 05:29 PM

good points whiffleball, i didn't look at it that way because i've never been to a casino.

VeryOldMan · 05-13-2013, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....[snip]

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

Yeah - I found this game 40 years ago and was hooked, but in this instant gratification age with so many options available for legal and illegal gambling, why would someone take up this particular gambling habit with so many options available?

I love this sport but it sure seems like a balloon with a slow leak.

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acorn54

good points whiffleball, i didn't look at it that way because i've never been to a casino.

Good for you!!!! Casinos will do whatever they can to draw u in....make u feel like u are valuable......tracks look at you like your a hindrance not a valuable customer.....

Track handle will never increase......keeneland has done everything they can and cut down cost of base wagers that helps

Pick 6s are sometimg u have to look at for proof....Belmont pick 6 carryovers ate getting lower and lower there is no new blood in pick 6s....

Handle is down all over the place....sometimes they go up a little but the long term outlook for horse racing handle is a dead issue...

No new blood is the main reason and people that do bet horses are literary a dying breed....my father who for 27 years of my life bet horses all the time....now aside from triple crown races and breeders cup he stopped cold turkey he's tired of hitting numbers getting robbed odds changing and no value....he still gambles but he plays cards now exclusively I'm sure hes not the only one that has made this transition

All of his friends go to otb 5 nights a weeks there 65...mathematically speaking they won't be around no more then 30 years and I'm sure there not the only group that's in the same age demographic

In laymens terms people that bet horses now are dying and giving up the habit and nobody is picking up the habit.....do the math

pondman · 05-13-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

When you walk into a casino, you are walking into a den of snakes that have a vacuum hose taped to your wallet. Unless you run by the pits and slots and head towards sports or horses, you will lose. The games all have expected negative returns.

davew · 05-13-2013, 05:49 PM

I don't know of any positive expectation bets at the casinos.. unless you count all the cards at a blackjack table and play a few hands every 5 shuffles.

There are not many at the track either, but it is fun trying to find them.

Stillriledup · 05-13-2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

U nailed it.....admission takeout program cost beers and everything else is all you gotta look at....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken....

You walk in casino with 200 u got all your drinks and all overhead paid for before u make your first bet

You walk in the track with 200 after admission it's 196
After you buy a program it's now 190....4 beers it's now 165 a hot dog it's 160 parking 157 your first $20 bet your bankroll has now evaporated to $137!!!!!! That's why people don't go to the tracks anymore

You people that sit home on your computer and get your monster rebates don't see this.....the game is dead as a doornail and besides Saratoga delmar (I think oaklawn has good attendence) and a couple other tracks it's a done deal

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....

Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you

Example I lose 2000 at otb I get nothing in the mail 2 weeks later

I lose 2000 playing video poker/slots in 2 weeks if getting free $25 in slot play free buffet daily free parking free dining $30 dining credits and then 2 free nights every week in Atlantic city during the summer...... Not to mention free shows and everything else.....

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

WHIZZ SAID "Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you"

This, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem the racing industry seems to have.

Dave Schwartz · 05-13-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points.

Someone,

I am not sure which points you disagree with but I think I will disagree with your disagreement. LOL

You must remember that HK is a different world. (No pun.) The racing is an enclosed system, with much more integrity than US racing. Not sure how much more but when you have two tracks and (basically) no shippers it is much easier to control drugs, etc.

The late odds changes - if we had that brown light it would do no good as the gate is already open when those odds change. Different than HK (obviously).

The track operations in HK (and Japan as well) are VERY customer conscious. The problem here is that the tracks here serve the horsemen first, second, and third. The customer is (at best) lucky to get into the superfecta (i.e. rank 4th). He is just sucker who sends his money in. It is the rare track that is willing to even get the customer "into the money" in terms of importance, when he should actually be the top priority.

In my actual experience, when I ask a horsemen who the "customer" in the game is, the response is usually "The People Who Buy Race Horses." That is just nuts but it is what they believe.

My contention is that track management in HK and Japan both understand who the customer is and are rewarded accordingly.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 05:55 PM

And nothing for nothing how can anybody go to a track for the first time pick up a program or racing form and understand a f#%^*\#= thing they are reading....if anybody here picked up a Chinese newspaper how long would u look at it before u put it down and said why am I wasting my time.....it's no different then putting a form in front of somebody for the first time.....

Now look at a 23 year old kid who plays poker for the first time....he may not know kings beat jacks but in a hour he will know what ranking are and 3 days later figure out some basic strategy.....a week later get basic knowledge and sees what's winning......in a month reading simple books now seeing he can win playing this game......6 months later now wants to play cards 4 days a week Abd thinks he is the best player in world....

This 23 year old kid goes to track first time pays $4 to get in $5 for a racing form which he has no clue how to read.....he will ask a guy sitting 5 feet away how to read it he will tell the kid to beat it....the kid bets a race lose $20 sees 24 minutes to posts waits for rave loses $20 sees 24 minutes to post and says screw this and walks out

The 23 year old kid sits at a poker table all 9 players know he is a fish and they all make him feel welcome and comfortable at a table and the 23 year old likes it and feels comfortable

The 23 year old kid gets run out of the door by the "compitition" at racetrack....does that make sense how no new kids bet racing?

Ive worked at several top tier casinos and have seen 100s of kids come in to play cards for first time and SO MANY come back and become steady regulars,...

There are reasons why poker has attracted "increased there handle" over past 10 years and racetracks are "decreasing their handle"

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

WHIZZ SAID "Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you"

This, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem the racing industry seems to have.

SRU I work in prob the nicest casino in county and people that go there and other casino to be fair and they feel like rock stars....

They think the 2 free rooms the $40 in free slot play are the greatest things in the world....they can get there brains beat in but they will leave happy knowing the casino really loves them and values them...

Nothing more I find funny then the players that get buried for 1200 a week and walk around with the "casino wardrobe" attire with the casino name hats windbreakers and what not....

Then the players that play a lot and see they are close to becoming a "diamond" member or "black card" member make it there sole mission in life to get to that level....

Past weekend a player who I'm friendly with says robert do you gamble or play I say yes I bet horses....hell say "yeah I used to go to the track all the time but I hate the long time between races and cheating"

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again

Stillriledup · 05-13-2013, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

SRU I work in prob the nicest casino in county and people that go there and other casino to be fair and they feel like rock stars....

They think the 2 free rooms the $40 in free slot play are the greatest things in the world....they can get there brains beat in but they will leave happy knowing the casino really loves them and values them...

Nothing more I find funny then the players that get buried for 1200 a week and walk around with the "casino wardrobe" attire with the casino name hats windbreakers and what not....

Then the players that play a lot and see they are close to becoming a "diamond" member or "black card" member make it there sole mission in life to get to that level....

Past weekend a player who I'm friendly with says robert do you gamble or play I say yes I bet horses....hell say "yeah I used to go to the track all the time but I hate the long time between races and cheating"

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again

its funny how people would say "too complicated"...what's complicated about it, doesnt the track have a 'quick pick' button?

Lotteries take 50% or more, tracks take 20% yet people would much rather play the lottery. Go figure.

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

its funny how people would say "too complicated"...what's complicated about it, doesnt the track have a 'quick pick' button?

Lotteries take 50% or more, tracks take 20% yet people would much rather play the lottery. Go figure.

Too many numbers and intimidating things in a program and at a track to gain more customers....it's a fight that can't be won

Phantombridgejumpe · 05-13-2013, 07:34 PM

Just a couple months ago there was a $3M winner and about an $8M pot that was raised on a fairly new type of bet.

Of course that was ripped as a dumb bet by many on the board, but the customer wanted it. Would it kill NBC to put a one hour show on once a week in the summer with 3 races from 2 or 3 different tracks? Call the bet the BIG 3 and make it available to all tracks. Give those in attendance at the 3 tracks 5% takeout on the big 3 and everyone else gets 10%.

How about 10% takeout for Place Bets on Tuesdays? How about the super pick 10, everyone in attendance gets a random ticket with 10 numbers, if you win all 10 you win $100K and that prize grows $1 for every person in attendance at the track until it is hit.

If the 25 minutes is an issue make it 15-20, 10 races in 3 hours.

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantombridgejumpe

Just a couple months ago there was a $3M winner and about an $8M pot that was raised on a fairly new type of bet.

Of course that was ripped as a dumb bet by many on the board, but the customer wanted it. Would it kill NBC to put a one hour show on once a week in the summer with 3 races from 2 or 3 different tracks? Call the bet the BIG 3 and make it available to all tracks. Give those in attendance at the 3 tracks 5% takeout on the big 3 and everyone else gets 10%.

How about 10% takeout for Place Bets on Tuesdays? How about the super pick 10, everyone in attendance gets a random ticket with 10 numbers, if you win all 10 you win $100K and that prize grows $1 for every person in attendance at the track until it is hit.

If the 25 minutes is an issue make it 15-20, 10 races in 3 hours.

All great points but again nothing hear will attract new blood....I'm not trying to be negative it's just isn't gonns happen....

If there was no takeout u wouldn't see any new blood exept the .commers that would have the system to win at it...

Racing is a dead issue anybody that went to party at Monmouth with friends will not be making a 2nd trip back the next racing day.....u got a better shot of George Washington or Abe Lincoln becoming next president

Robert Goren · 05-13-2013, 08:05 PM

People used to bet their house numbers, kid's birthdays, their age and a hundred other things on DD, Exactas and Tris. Now they bet them on the lottery or keno or roulette. There has be a reason for that. As far as I can see nobody is trying to get those people back to track. ADWs and OTBs are great for the serious horse player, but they have nothing to offer to those people. I don't know if racing can get them back, but they are not even trying. I don't even know into today's world that the serious horse player and the kid's birthday player can co-exist. A lot of what the serious horse player want is a turn off to those players.

Stillriledup · 05-13-2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

People used to bet their house numbers, kid's birthdays, their age and a hundred other things on DD, Exactas and Tris. Now they bet them on the lottery or keno or roulette. There has be a reason for that. As far as I can see nobody is trying to get those people back to track. ADWs and OTBs are great for the serious horse player, but they have nothing to offer to those people. I don't know if racing can get them back, but they are not even trying. I don't even know into today's world that the serious horse player and the kid's birthday player can co-exist. A lot of what the serious horse player want is a turn off to those players.

There are plenty of good handicappers who are begging for these fish to come back into the waters. Its sharks vs sharks these days, there is very little meat on the bone, certainly not like it used to be a few decades ago.

Robert Fischer · 05-13-2013, 08:28 PM

most of the things in this thread are important issues, that would improve customer service and improve handle.

To really grow handle we need to use the media better. Horse Racing uses about 10% of the possible media.
A few times a year on cable for major races, where we don't even incorporate an ADW or focus on gambling, doesn't cut it.

iceknight · 05-13-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated
Add to that: Horses being shipped off to slaughter houses or being abandoned

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again

There are truths in there, no?

Phantombridgejumpe · 05-13-2013, 08:41 PM

think it has to go that way forever.

I'll admit it might, but it might not.

Woodbridge is an OTB in New Jersey. Not the only one, but there aren't many. However you can play online (through the state) at a casino or at one on the state racetracks - my point is that it is not the only outlet.

A couple weeks ago it was Derby Wednesday and almost every seat with video monitors was taken, maybe about 250 in all. Add to that 40-60 people not sitting and maybe 20-40 at the bar and restaurant. I don't know how many people were playing and for how much money, but it was not dead and buried. The sport is far from done and I'm not willing to write it off. Sure it has huge problems, one being the attendance and handle on track, but I hope there are people far smarter than me trying to solve them.

cordep17 · 05-13-2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....

Les Bois is doing this. I watched a bunch of videos, and they are really turning things around there. It is a small community that has the media's support. They treat it like other sporting events and people go.

they improved the racing surface and are trying to make their track more attractive and lucrative. On wednesdays, women get in free; if you treet the spectators right, they keep coming.

I don't agree with all of you that racing is done. I'm new to the game and it seems people of my age are still getting into it. I see numerous kids at the track betting the ponies with their dads.

wiffleball whizz · 05-13-2013, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantombridgejumpe

think it has to go that way forever.

I'll admit it might, but it might not.

Woodbridge is an OTB in New Jersey. Not the only one, but there aren't many. However you can play online (through the state) at a casino or at one on the state racetracks - my point is that it is not the only outlet.

A couple weeks ago it was Derby Wednesday and almost every seat with video monitors was taken, maybe about 250 in all. Add to that 40-60 people not sitting and maybe 20-40 at the bar and restaurant. I don't know how many people were playing and for how much money, but it was not dead and buried. The sport is far from done and I'm not willing to write it off. Sure it has huge problems, one being the attendance and handle on track, but I hope there are people far smarter than me trying to solve them.

I refuse click on the religion thread but maybe what I'm gonn say now belongs there...

If pro-creation was to stop and no more reproduction was allowed would there be anybody left in 110 years?

That's how I look at it with racing....whoever is at the Woodbridge otb now is the last in line of the horseplayer.....no new ones are being created once this current crop is dead that's a gonna be it.....

If I had to put a guess on it I'd say new poker players to new horseplayers ratio is 700/1......and to be honest I'm not even sure where I could find the 1

And no guys a person that bets the derby And puts 20 to win on a horse in the breeders cup isn't a new player

Phantombridgejumpe · 05-13-2013, 09:11 PM

The 700/1 number is a pure guess on your part. Even if it was accurate I would say it doesn't have to be that way forever. And by the way, Poker sure seemed hotter 2-3 years ago than it does today.

It wasn't all 65+ year olds either at the OTB. There was certainly a demographic to the crowd (male, white, older), but in terms of money that isn't the worst age group.

I suppose we may know in 10-20 years who was correct, but if you gave me 700/1 odds on racing improving in the US in that time I'd throw down a few bucks.