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Old 04-23-2018, 10:42 AM   #1
Mc990
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Overthinking

Bolt and Justify lay over the field on Timeform and they look solid on TG and Ragozin as well... (even better if you're inclined to toss the horses who look to bounce).

I'm just amazed at the amount of overthinking I'm seeing when I really believe we have two standouts.

I suppose I'd give a slight chance to Good Magic who will probably run his race but I'm just not sure 10 furlongs moves him up (Chad has had a couple recent derby starters with very similar profiles).

I expect Solomini to run well as he looks ready for a new top but he starts out much slower.

I think one of the horses with 5-6 weeks coming in, could fire a big one fresh but it probably still wouldn't be good enough if one of the top two run their race. Lone Sailor would probably be my pick of the bunch... man did Desormeaux ever botch it for My Boy Jack, the play was to lay out for 6 weeks and wait for defections... hard to see him as a factor now.

Good luck to all
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Old 04-23-2018, 11:01 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mc990 View Post
Bolt and Justify lay over the field on Timeform and they look solid on TG and Ragozin as well... (even better if you're inclined to toss the horses who look to bounce).

I'm just amazed at the amount of overthinking I'm seeing when I really believe we have two standouts.

I suppose I'd give a slight chance to Good Magic who will probably run his race but I'm just not sure 10 furlongs moves him up (Chad has had a couple recent derby starters with very similar profiles).

I expect Solomini to run well as he looks ready for a new top but he starts out much slower.

I think one of the horses with 5-6 weeks coming in, could fire a big one fresh but it probably still wouldn't be good enough if one of the top two run their race. Lone Sailor would probably be my pick of the bunch... man did Desormeaux ever botch it for My Boy Jack, the play was to lay out for 6 weeks and wait for defections... hard to see him as a factor now.

Good luck to all

I like that Bolt d'Oro horse, particularly his last work. However, the best horse doesn't always win, depends on how the race is run - the race shape. The best of em' have fallen victim to pace. It takes a true class stand out to overcome all the problems associated with this type of race, It'll be interesting to see if Bolt is the type. I like his chances.

Simple enough . . .

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Last edited by Blenheim; 04-23-2018 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Spacing . . .
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:23 PM   #3
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Chad Brown seems to be VERY happy with Good Magic’s latest work. He says it was “outstanding” and “perfect” and says all systems are go for the horse to run his best race of his life in the KY Derby.

No reason to overthink it ....

Your winner comes from these 5 horses ....

Mendelssohn
Magnum Moon
Audible
Good Magic
Hofburg

It’s badically all about Pletcher, the Ortiz brothers and the outstanding class and ability of Mendelssohn.

Last edited by LoneF; 04-23-2018 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:58 PM   #4
Mc990
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Originally Posted by LoneF View Post
Chad Brown seems to be VERY happy with Good Magic’s latest work. He says it was “outstanding” and “perfect” and says all systems are go for the horse to run his best race of his life in the KY Derby.

No reason to overthink it ....

Your winner comes from these 5 horses ....

Mendelssohn
Magnum Moon
Audible
Good Magic
Hofburg

It’s badically all about Pletcher, the Ortiz brothers and the outstanding class and ability of Mendelssohn.
Differing opinions are what makes this game great but I strongly believe you have to play Mend to bounce... that was a big figure. Strictly a percentage play. If he were 25-1, maybe I'd be willing to entertain a different strategy.

To me, MM is an easy toss... I really believe he's already flashed his best form and if that's the case, he's nowhere near fast enough to contend here. He'd have to improve and again, percentages are strongly against it... i would actually make him a shorter price to be "eased" (or worse) than to win..... just one man's opinion though.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:12 PM   #5
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I am just waiting for post positions. For this year's Derby, I am going with the trend ever since they implemented the new points system that prevents pure sprinters (more likely their Derby-fevered owners) from entering this race. Apart from the Palace Malice experiment-gone-wrong, the quality speed has held and closers did have their chance. Other than the volume of rush hour traffic, it is pretty fair race. It even produced a Triple Crown winner.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneF View Post
Chad Brown seems to be VERY happy with Good Magic’s latest work. He says it was “outstanding” and “perfect” and says all systems are go for the horse to run his best race of his life in the KY Derby.

No reason to overthink it ....

Your winner comes from these 5 horses ....

Mendelssohn
Magnum Moon
Audible
Good Magic
Hofburg

It’s badically all about Pletcher, the Ortiz brothers and the outstanding class and ability of Mendelssohn.

And maybe that is where the "other Baffert horse" bites us all in the ass.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:22 PM   #7
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I think looking at numbers and figs of one questionably run race is under thinking. Especially when 3 horses other than the ones mentioned i believe have a great shot. The word "bounce" is thrown around way too loosely to make peoples figs seem accurate. I have a feeling (could be wrong) that the Santa Anita Derby was weaker than some of the other preps.....despite the what the figure folk are saying.

I don't cash on the horses I cash on with figs anyway, those are usually the shorter ones that I'll use in a number but the "Payoff horse" most likely won't have the best fig anyway. That's where i make my money.

Stand outs my ass. Bolt D'oro has not really won since like September.

Last edited by burnsy; 04-23-2018 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Mc990 View Post
Bolt and Justify lay over the field on Timeform and they look solid on TG and Ragozin as well... (even better if you're inclined to toss the horses who look to bounce).
Yes, if you're strictly a figure player then Justify over whatever is your play. People speak of bounces but I don't recall anyone suggesting Justify could bounce off his massive figures. And, I reserve skepticism of those figures to begin with. The highest last out Beyer is 2 for the last 15. The highest last out Brisnet is 5 for 29. The TG for Good Magic and Vino Rosso is good enough to contend for the win. I'm sure Trakus would show they ran farther than the Santa Anita Derby horses as well.

That said, I had some tunnel vision against Nyquist that partially cleared in time for post. His dosage profile was a skeleton, he didn't beat much in Florida, had the Juvenile champion jinx, not my favorite Derby sire line, and perhaps other drawbacks. I played Exaggerator then perhaps two hours to post I threw Nyquist on top a small trifecta and exacta wager. He had the fast 3/8th and Buckpasser angles going for him, both with solid Derby impact value. I cashed those tickets for a small positive ROI on the race but had I merely boxed the two instead of overthinking the gimmicks then would have collected half my rent for the month. Not a huge score but it's no fun leaving a few c-notes on the table. The difference between Nyquist and Justify is Nyquist previously beat a chunk of the field going into the gate including the horse I liked most. Justify has only beat Bolt.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:41 PM   #9
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I think looking at numbers and figs of one questionably run race is under thinking. Especially when 3 horses other than the ones mentioned i believe have a great shot. The word "bounce" is thrown around way too loosely to make peoples figs seem accurate. I have a feeling (could be wrong) that the Santa Anita Derby was weaker than some of the other preps.....despite the what the figure folk are saying.

I don't cash on the horses I cash on with figs anyway, those are usually the shorter ones that I'll use in a number but the "Payoff horse" most likely won't have the best fig anyway. That's where i make my money.

Stand outs my ass. Bolt D'oro has not really won since like September.
Just because your last sentence is true, it does not preclude Bolt and Justify from being standouts in this race... someone capable of putting together those first two intelligent paragraphs (even though I somewhat disagree with them) should not also be capable of writing the third paragraph.
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:22 PM   #10
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Just because your last sentence is true, it does not preclude Bolt and Justify from being standouts in this race... someone capable of putting together those first two intelligent paragraphs (even though I somewhat disagree with them) should not also be capable of writing the third paragraph.

Neither Bolt D'Oro, nor Solimini have indicated that they are improving as the races get longer, unless you go solely by figs. This race is setting up to have a race shape very like 2005. They don't strike me the two horses to stay the longest, or come running late.

My interest in figs is almost purely to gage which horses are in the "in crowd" and which are not. Who is and who isn't has, since the advent of internet forums, 9 times out of 10 been due to irrational exerburence. I don't determine what I think about any horse based on this, but I do use it as a heaping barrel of salt to weed through what everyone is saying.

The outcome of derby is more often than not, in retrospect, not that surprising. There are Mine That Birds, but they a rare. When odd outcomes happen it is usually due to an oddly run race and unforeseeable events or weather.

In a race with a few true speed horses, pick the most dogged speed with the most likely chance of hanging on, the most nimble and dogged 2nd flighter, and then toss in a pure closer, and box them. Showy speed is often not very dogged.

In a race of equally matched speed, pick the most dogged speed likely to stay the longest, the most nimble and dogged 2nd flighter, and then toss in a pure closer. And box them.

You might pick the wrong ones, but the three types of horses that cross the line will almost always fit the pattern, and more often than not make the most sense after the fact.

Hard Spun, Street Sense, and Curlin made sense.

Afleet Alex made sense, breaking down the speed in 2005 was hard, none really showed fight in their prior races, except Wilko, who was my choice (also because of the band). Giaccomo made sense too in retrospect, there wasn't really any other closer.

I had token win bets on him and Closing Argument because of their odds, but I didn't have them anywhere else.

Nyquist and Exagerator made sense. Gunrunner bucked the pattern, but history has proved why. They were the only two horses I liked and I bet them in a straight exacta, Nyquist over Exagerator. It wasn't hard, I don't claim superpowers, but it was the only thing that made sense. It didn't make me rich, but it was better than a kick in the butt.

I stay away from Johnny Jump out of Nowheres. So far I've done okay with that. I also stay away from Dear John's on the Skids. So far I've done okay with that. I stay away from the Umpteenth Time is the Charmers. So far I've done okay with that. And starting a couple of years ago, I stay away from Is it Friday Yeters, this one has been very promising so far.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:23 PM   #11
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You should like my 5 horses than ..

Mendelssohn is the speed most likely to stay.

Audible/Magnum Moon the most dogged stalkers

Good Magic/Hofburg best pure mid pack/closers
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:28 PM   #12
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I will say the super picture looks like it’s starting to come into focus.

Flameaway/combatant .I think are both must uses for the 3rd and 4th spots just because they always show up

Lone Sailor is becoming a bit of a wise guy horse which is not ideal because it will lower his odds but still should get a decent price. I am talking use 3rd and 4th not saying he will win.

Bravazo is one I personally like 3rd or 4th that should be HUGE odds
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:32 PM   #13
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Differing opinions are what makes this game great but I strongly believe you have to play Mend to bounce... that was a big figure. Strictly a percentage play. If he were 25-1, maybe I'd be willing to entertain a different strategy.

To me, MM is an easy toss... I really believe he's already flashed his best form and if that's the case, he's nowhere near fast enough to contend here. He'd have to improve and again, percentages are strongly against it... i would actually make him a shorter price to be "eased" (or worse) than to win..... just one man's opinion though.
I respect your opinion but I would say Justify should be shorter odds to be eased than to win for sure. The most likely scenario for him is clear. Breaks slow as usual gets shuffled way back and after getting bumped and taking dirt for the first time he never gets back in the race and Smith eases him
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:48 PM   #14
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If Baffert has first choice and could put Justify anywhere where do you think he would choose ??

I say Justify only shot would be getting the #20 post and Smith keeping him to the outside in the early and mid stages of the race. If he draws the #1 post I would have to find a way to bet every cent I could get my hands on against him to win in a prop bet or whatever. Sure any horse is going to be disadvantaged with the 1 hole but a horse that breaks slow and has never taken contact or dirt in his life ..... and I bet he would stil go off as favorite lol
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:51 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by burnsy View Post
I think looking at numbers and figs of one questionably run race is under thinking. Especially when 3 horses other than the ones mentioned i believe have a great shot. The word "bounce" is thrown around way too loosely to make peoples figs seem accurate. I have a feeling (could be wrong) that the Santa Anita Derby was weaker than some of the other preps.....despite the what the figure folk are saying.

I don't cash on the horses I cash on with figs anyway, those are usually the shorter ones that I'll use in a number but the "Payoff horse" most likely won't have the best fig anyway. That's where i make my money.

Stand outs my ass. Bolt D'oro has not really won since like September.
How many horses in this crop would be beat McKinzie and Justify under the uncontested lead in the Santa Anita Derby. I know its been said a lot but I just dont buy that knock on Bolt d'Oro one bit. If he ran in the Louisiana Derby, Bluegrass, Arkansas Derby, or Wood. Just my opinion but if Bolt woulda won by open lengths people would cry that he was ducking Justify or McKinzie if he was healthy. If you just dont like the horse fine but the he hasnt won since September argument is crap. He ran a brutal wide trip in the BC Juvenile, ran against a stand out in McKinzie, and couldnt catch Justify on an uncontested lead most of these horses would have the same result.

Last edited by PowerUpPaynter; 04-23-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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