Arrogate and How We Define Greatness - Haskin @ Bloodhorse

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by CosmicWon

Arrogate is to me Curlin-lite at this point

Wow.

[thaskalos]

Seeing how fruitless a pursuit it is to compare horses from different eras...I've devised my own (admittedly crude) barometer for judging "greatness"...in man, OR beast.

This being a pretty big country...it takes true "greatness" to be the "best"...in ANYTHING. So...if a horse proves to be the best that I've seen in a DECADE...then I am willing to declare such a horse as "one of the best EVER". And Arrogate definitely qualifies.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

The entire sport nowadays is about breeding, and dollars made from breeding and purchases made for breeding, and breeding, and breeding, and breeding. Did I mention breeding?

With that context involved, we will never see another John Henry. Or a Cigar. A Kelso. A Dr. Fager. A Forego.

So to try and compare horses to the 70's and before isn't fair to either side. How about we just enjoy a really really special horse?

This has been true for at least the last 30 years though. I think it's actually more of a function of horses running fewer races under less weight that prevents comparisons to the "old days" than retiring early to breed. It's a shame some of us haven't adjusted our standards to acknowledge you can be great without accomplishing the exact same feats the champion of 1964 did.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

It's possible to acknowledge Arrogate (and Ghostzapper, who I continue to believe is the closest analogue to Arrogate)

Are you speaking of the same Ghostzapper who went two turns exactly twice in his life? When one of those was a 4-horse field in the Monmouth slop?


Arrogate has already topped as many foes this year as Ghostzapper did in his entire Horse-of-the-Year campaign.

... the HOY campaign which kicked-off in July vs. Aggadan (never won stakes at all outside of Maryland-breds) and Unforgettable Max (only career stakes win was in a $54K affair at Delaware Park).

... the HOY campaign which continued against Presidential Affair (grade 3 winner on best days) and the great Zoffinger (ran 30 times after meeting Ghostzapper and lost all 30 of them to finish up 2-for-37)


There's half of Ghostzapper's HOY campaign right there!

The easy pace scenario in the BC Classic was just icing on the cake.



Arrogate could stop right now and tower over anything Ghostzapper ever legitimately did.


In far too many circles those voting for HOY just pause and consider whoever won the Gr. I Woodward and then submit their vote according to whichever name topped the list.



However I will agree that it is too soon to rate Arrogate with what are truly the all-time greats. He's still just a new 4yo though, so improvement isn't out of the question.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

No, maybe someday when I have several assistants. 😀

Should I sharpen up the resume?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Chrome had ample opportunity to amass all that money and it took him all those races to do it...Arrogate did it in, as you say, four races (well, it was more than four, but who's counting?)

Anyway, just proves again what a superior animal Arrogate is...all that money was available to a bunch of other horses in 2016 and 2017 and they couldn't do it...funny how that works.

That just shows how much these rich races have warped the sport.

[maddog42]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Chrome had
ample opportunity to amass all that money and it took him all those races to do it...Arrogate did it in, as you say, four races (well, it was more than four, but who's counting?)

Anyway, just proves again what a superior animal Arrogate is...all that money was available to a bunch of other horses in 2016 and 2017 and they couldn't do it...funny how that works.

Something tells me we haven't seen his best race... and that means we are looking at a Bid/Secretariat type horse. The last 2 years have been wonderful for racing.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by maddog42

Something tells me we haven't seen his best race... and that means we are looking at a Bid/Secretariat type horse. The last 2 years have been wonderful for racing.

I agree we probably haven't seen his best, but that's another reason to be tickef off at his light schedule. If he doesn't run much, it decreases the likelihood that he ever runs that freak race.

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I agree we probably haven't seen his best, but that's another reason to be tickef off at his light schedule. If he doesn't run much, it decreases the likelihood that he ever runs that freak race.

The DWC might not be the “freak race” which you are seeking to see Arrogate perform, but during that race he did have some freakish accomplishments:

• Fell behind the leader, Long River after the first 100m by 1.80 seconds and finished ahead of him by 5.10 seconds at the end; a 6.90 second change.

• After the first 400m, he ran the next set of 400m faster than the leader to include running the last 400m in 23.90 seconds.

• His average kph velocity for the last 400m was equivalent to the rate of running 6F in 1:07.89 seconds and this coming after running 1600m.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by castaway01

This has been true for at least the last 30 years though. I think it's actually more of a function of horses running fewer races under less weight that prevents comparisons to the "old days" than retiring early to breed. It's a shame some of us haven't adjusted our standards to acknowledge you can be great without accomplishing the exact same feats the champion of 1964 did.

1. "Adjusting our standards" is unfair to the past horses. Whatever category Arrogate belongs in, he just doesn't belong in the same category as Swaps, for instance. (Take a look at his 1955 and 1956 seasons, look at the times run and the weight carried, and get back to me.) When you call a horse with a career like Arrogate "great", you diminish horses who did a lot more.

2. It's actually not true that Arrogate can't do what earlier horses did. His owners don't want to do it. If Arrogate's testicles were cut off in a freak stable accident tomorrow, they suddenly would want to do it. (If Arrogate were a girl, they'd want to do it too.)

If owners don't want to run their horses and establish their greatness, that's on the owners. But we can't start elevating horses who haven't achieved enough to deserve the status of "greatness" just because owners are greedy with intact colts.