Religion III

[PaceAdvantage]

Rabbi Tovia Singer exposes the most outrageous NT contradiction?

YouTube

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Rabbi Tovia Singer exposes the most outrageous NT contradiction?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xq9ul8P3mQ

This rabbi is a three-time loser and you're still hanging on to him for dear life? You and he are both delusional, for there is no such thing as any "outrageous NT contradiction".

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

This rabbi is a three-time loser and you're still hanging on to him for dear life? You and he are both delusional, for there is no such thing as any "outrageous NT contradiction".

LOL

There you go with the name calling.

I'm not hanging onto anything for dear life, unlike some on here.

So...according to the New Testament, when was Jesus crucified?

Do you base it on the books of Matthew, Mark & Luke where he was crucified on the 15th day of the month of Nisan (THE FIRST DAY OF PASSOVER)....or....

do you base it on the book of John, where he was crucified on the 14th day of the month of Nisan (THE DAY BEFORE THE FIRST DAY OF PASSOVER) ?????

[PaceAdvantage]

If you need Jesus to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, I guess he needs to be crucified THE DAY BEFORE PASSOVER, then the lambs were actually slaughtered for the Passover meal.

This is what happens in the book of John.

This is not what happens in Matthew, Mark or Luke. Also, no mention of Jesus being the Lamb of God in the synoptic gospels.

[PaceAdvantage]

So....Jesus being crucified on TWO DIFFERENT DATES in the New Testament does not equate to a major contradiction? Really now...

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I believe it on the basis of scripture.

Which proves nothing.

Originally Posted by boxcar

The doctrine of the resurrection, the prophecies pertaining to the resurrection, etc. are all in the scriptures and they all haromonize [sic] quite nicely -- not violating any laws of logic and even satisfying the principle behind Occam's razor.

I'll address this one in a separate post.

Originally Posted by boxcar

It something cannot be observed by the 5 senses, then it's not physical.

So the following are not physical?

• Atoms
• Gamma rays
• X-rays
• Quarks
• Electrons
• Neutrinos
• Black holes
• Gravity
• Magnetism
• Time
• Space
• Etc.

Originally Posted by boxcar

But the resurrection was falsifiable and tested by first century believers. I believe they're called eye witnesses.

• You've come full circle. Back to scripture which proves nothing.
• You can't produce your eye witnesses because they have been dead for almost 2000 years. How inconvenient for you.
• Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of evidence. Ask any scientist.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

So....Jesus being crucified on TWO DIFFERENT DATES in the New Testament does not equate to a major contradiction? Really now...

Nope. Not really. Enjoy the following read if you can focus that long.

Also, it's mistake to press the typology of the paschal lamb and Christ too hard. Don't forget: At the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the New Covenant -- a covenant with new rules. So, while there are still significant points of comparisons between the Old and New Covenants, there are also important differences. The day on which the paschal lamb and Christ were slain is just one such difference. A second major difference is the observance of the Christian "sabbath". Even though Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the writer of Hebrews tells us that there remains a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" (Heb 4:8-10), the day that is observed is no longer on the 7th day -- but the "eighth" day (first day of the week). One would naturally tend to think that since there remains a "Sabbath rest" for God's people that that sabbath would still be observed on the 7th day of the week. But the NT teaches otherwise.

https://reformedbooksonline.com/christ-died-on-friday/

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Which proves nothing.

I'll address this one in a separate post.

Fallacy of circular reasoning.

So the following are not physical?

• Atoms
• Gamma rays
• X-rays
• Quarks
• Electrons
• Neutrinos
• Black holes
• Gravity
• Magnetism
• Time
• Space
• Etc.

[/quote]

Can any of those be sensed with the aid of devices?

However, I will take issue with Time and Space. Neither Time or Space can be discerned with any of our senses. We cannot smell, touch, taste, see or hear Time or Space. We know Space exists only because of the Matter that fills it and moves through it. And we know Time exists because all temporal beings are governed by Time. Our lives revolve around Father Time.

• You've come full circle. Back to scripture which proves nothing.
• You can't produce your eye witnesses because they have been dead for almost 2000 years. How inconvenient for you.

• Not at all. Taking your simplistic argument to its logical conclusion, we can't believe some of the greatest historical characters ever existed because all who witnessed these characters' lives have also been dead for a bunch of centuries.
  
  

  Eyewitnesses are the least reliable form of evidence. Ask any scientist.

Professional criminal investigators would no doubt disagree.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Fallacy of circular reasoning.

How so?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Can any of those be sensed with the aid of devices?

Some can be. However, you did not qualify your claim to include the aid of devices.

Originally Posted by boxcar

However, I will take issue with Time and Space. Neither Time or Space can be discerned with any of our senses.

So by your standard they are not physical.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Taking your simplistic argument to its logical conclusion, we can't believe some of the greatest historical characters ever existed because all who witnessed these characters' lives have also been dead for a bunch of centuries.

We've been through this one before. See #6548

Originally Posted by boxcar

Professional criminal investigators would no doubt disagree.

Along with judges and lawyers. That's one thing that's wrong with our judicial system. Eyewitness testimony is given entirely too much weight. But then truth is not the purpose of our judicial system. Rather it's purpose is to keep order. Paraphrasing Winston Churchill, most other judicial systems in this world are much worse.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

How so?

Some can be. However, you did not qualify your claim to include the aid of devices.

So by your standard they are not physical.

We've been through this one before. See #6548

Along with judges and lawyers. That's one thing that's wrong with our judicial system. Eyewitness testimony is given entirely too much weight. But then truth is not the purpose of our judicial system. Rather it's purpose is to keep order. Paraphrasing Winston Churchill, most other judicial systems in this world are much worse.

I didn't have to qualify my claim.

Also, since eyewitnesses are totally unreliable, we now in the 21st century have no idea what has occurred in the distant past. Did George Washington ever exist? Abraham Lincoln? Julius Caesar?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I didn't have to qualify my claim.

Fallacy of Special Pleading. In the past you have insisted that other's claims must be qualified. Why the double standard?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, since eyewitnesses are totally unreliable, we now in the 21st century have no idea what has occurred in the distant past. Did George Washington ever exist? Abraham Lincoln? Julius Caesar?

I did not say that eyewitnesses are totally unreliable. I said they are the least reliable. There's a difference.

Furthermore, there is evidence other than eyewitness testimony. Archeological evidence for example.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No one is claiming that Washington, Lincoln, or Caesar rose from the dead. Claims as to their existence and accomplishments are not extraordinary.

George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. We know were both are buried.

We have hand written communications between Washington and his subordinates. Ditto for bills he signed as president.

Lincoln wrote out several copies of the Gettysburg Address. We have those. The actual Emancipation Proclamation is in the National Archives. I've seen it. Ditto the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, signed by Washington and others.

Caesar's conquests definitely happened, otherwise today's map of Europe would not be what it is. Again, see the aforementioned post.


Given that Jesus's claim to fame was his rising from the dead the evidence for his existence is extraordinarily weak. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The Gospel of John was a church project that may have been written in the 3rd century or later, ergo, it is not evidence at all.

By the way, the gospel are all anonymous. The earliest copies (from the 4th century) do not have a "by line." And the earliest by lines were written in the margin. Do you get that? Or is it something you choose to ignore because it conflicts with your beliefs.

The earliest of the synoptic gospels is Mark. I call it Mark because that is the label history has assigned to it. Not because anyone named Mark wrote it. If you can provide solid evidence that someone name Mark wrote it I'd like to hear it.

Mark is fiction. Possibly written to make money. There was a market for it. He may have been the Joel Osteen of his time. Matthew and Luke are fan fiction.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It explains a lot more than than self-defeating infinite regress does.

Religion uses infinite regress all the time.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Fallacy of Special Pleading. In the past you have insisted that other's claims must be qualified. Why the double standard?

I did not say that eyewitnesses are totally unreliable. I said they are the least reliable. There's a difference.

Furthermore, there is evidence other than eyewitness testimony. Archeological evidence for example.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No one is claiming that Washington, Lincoln, or Caesar rose from the dead. Claims as to their existence and accomplishments are not extraordinary.

George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. We know were both are buried.

We have hand written communications between Washington and his subordinates. Ditto for bills he signed as president.

Lincoln wrote out several copies of the Gettysburg Address. We have those. The actual Emancipation Proclamation is in the National Archives. I've seen it. Ditto the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, signed by Washington and others.

Caesar's conquests definitely happened, otherwise today's map of Europe would not be what it is. Again, see the aforementioned post.


Given that Jesus's claim to fame was his rising from the dead the evidence for his existence is extraordinarily weak. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The Gospel of John was a church project that may have been written in the 3rd century or later, ergo, it is not evidence at all.

By the way, the gospel are all anonymous. The earliest copies (from the 4th century) do not have a "by line." And the earliest by lines were written in the margin. Do you get that? Or is it something you choose to ignore because it conflicts with your beliefs.

The earliest of the synoptic gospels is Mark. I call it Mark because that is the label history has assigned to it. Not because anyone named Mark wrote it. If you can provide solid evidence that someone name Mark wrote it I'd like to hear it.

Mark is fiction. Possibly written to make money. There was a market for it. He may have been the Joel Osteen of his time. Matthew and Luke are fan fiction.

How about eyewitness accounts to PCR tests? Are they the least reliable?

In the past, I have said many things. What was the context in which you claim I said that?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Religion uses infinite regress all the time.

All religion? I know who the First and the Last is. Who the Alpha and Omega is. Who the Uncaused Cause is. Therefore, no infinite regress.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How about eyewitness accounts to PCR tests? Are they the least reliable?

What are PCR tests?