South Carolina Church Shootings

[PaceAdvantage]

Ten other states would eventually follow South Carolina in secession, forming the Confederate States of America. However, of the three flags the Confederacy would go on to adopt, none are the Confederate flag that is traditionally recognized today. The "Stars and Bars" flag, currently the subject of controversy, was actually the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

I don't really give a rats ass about the Confederate flag, as it's known today. I was never a southerner...I have no "southern pride" whatever that is...

I think people will never stop finding windmills to tilt at...invented controversies...things that constantly offend someone/EVERYONE...whatever...just another in a long line of manufactured crises...

Let's just kill this flag and get the inevitable over with and move onto the next thing that offends...

[Robert Fischer]

Nazis and confederates have pretty much nothing in common in this context, other than as a footnote of each having mostly-ruined a symbol, for modern society.

[Rookies]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.

I'm not about to, Mike. I would say though, that EVERY human society that advances the concept, mission and purpose of themselves as being to posit one race superior to others and to enforce that belief with subjugation, enslavement, imprisonment, murder and mayhem is certainly on the continuum.

To be fair, this includes virtually all prior 'civilized 'societies including the ancient Romans and Greeks and certainly every one of the imperialists: England, France, Spain and Germany, leading up to the atrocities of the 20th Century. It then becomes a question of at what point is enough and time to move forward, rather than keeping the old icons of more barbaric times?

Full disclosure. Canada had slavery in the 1800s, as well, due to its founding Brit & French parents. In the 1930s, down on the beautiful Beach Boardwalk, I stroll daily, there were signs posted: " No Jews or dogs allowed." Up to the mid 70s, there were clauses in my own standard home purchase of sale agreement, where one needed "Approval by the Residents' Association." Those have all been struck down, disposed of and relegated to the dustbin of historical disgrace.

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South. If he was coupled with any Civil War victor in standing, it was always Grant. And to use the above argument, if he was linked up with American military foes, it would be the superb Erwin Rommel, not some barbaric General heading the Waffen SS!

Certainly, if you examine the historical pictures of the Klan, U.S. Neo Nazis, a George Wallace rally in the 60s, nobody is holding up pix of Lee on his noble steed; but there are always, always, multiple shots of Confederate Flags. There is absolutely no accident in that symbolism. It is being used as its founders desired it to be- the superiority of a white race society.

Tom is correct about the real issue, in any case- the elimination of the gun. The Flag is simply a sidebar that should have been relegated to historical museums, generations ago.

[PaceAdvantage]

I say we get rid of ALL flags...flags do nothing but segregate the peoples of the world...making some feel superior to others...there are plenty of people in the world (and in the US) that are offended by the stars and stripes and what it represents.

Who are we to continue to offend these people. I think I'll start a petition to ban the American Flag from all public places.

Who's with me?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Rookies

I'm not about to, Mike. I would say though, that EVERY human society that advances the concept, mission and purpose of themselves as being to posit one race superior to others and to enforce that belief with subjugation, enslavement, imprisonment, murder and mayhem is certainly on the continuum.

To be fair, this includes virtually all prior 'civilized 'societies including the ancient Romans and Greeks and certainly every one of the imperialists: England, France, Spain and Germany, leading up to the atrocities of the 20th Century. It then becomes a question of at what point is enough and time to move forward, rather than keeping the old icons of more barbaric times?

Full disclosure. Canada had slavery in the 1800s, as well, due to its founding Brit & French parents. In the 1930s, down on the beautiful Beach Boardwalk, I stroll daily, there were signs posted: " No Jews or dogs allowed." Up to the mid 70s, there were clauses in my own standard home purchase of sale agreement, where one needed "Approval by the Residents' Association." Those have all been struck down, disposed of and relegated to the dustbin of historical disgrace.

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South. If he was coupled with any Civil War victor in standing, it was always Grant. And to use the above argument, if he was linked up with American military foes, it would be the superb Erwin Rommel, not some barbaric General heading the Waffen SS!

Certainly, if you examine the historical pictures of the Klan, U.S. Neo Nazis, a George Wallace rally in the 60s, nobody is holding up pix of Lee on his noble steed; but there are always, always, multiple shots of Confederate Flags. There is absolutely no accident in that symbolism. It is being used as its founders desired it to be- the superiority of a white race society.

Tom is correct about the real issue, in any case- the elimination of the gun. The Flag is simply a sidebar that should have been relegated to historical museums, generations ago.

Again, that flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army, not a flag adopted by any of the states of the confederacy. So, by your own words "Lee on his noble steed" is held up in some sort of regard, but the flag he used is to be flushed down the toilet because it has been perverted by the Klan and neo-nazis?

Like I said, I don't really care if it stays or goes...no sweat off my back. I just think it's kind of interesting how nobody really gave a crap until some nutjob goes and shoots up a church. And since this is primarily a liberal, left-wing crusade, it's also interesting how disrespectful the liberal, left-leaners are to the kind of people who were killed in that massacre...devout Christians...

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Let's just kill this flag and get the inevitable over with and move onto the next thing that offends...

That would be the statue of Jeff Davis in the Kentucky state house. I wonder how many mass murders that has inspired. Mitch McConnell is calling for its removal.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/polit...tatue-20150623

I have a shelf full of history books I better hide before the Thought Police show up at the door to replace them with sanitized, politically correct versions.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by Rookies

It is amusing to see the non sequitur and red & white herring of Robert E. Lee thrown into the mix here. Nobody has ever had an issue with Lee, who graduated from West Point with flying colours and was a superb tactician and military standard of excellence with the South.

The issue was raised by those on the left claiming that the sole motivation of every participant fighting for the South was the preservation of slavery, and that therefore the only motivation of anyone today displaying the Confederate flag is racism.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I say we get rid of ALL flags...flags do nothing but segregate the peoples of the world...making some feel superior to others...there are plenty of people in the world (and in the US) that are offended by the stars and stripes and what it represents.

Who are we to continue to offend these people. I think I'll start a petition to ban the American Flag from all public places.

Who's with me?

I find that some are offended by Old Glory to be comforting.
You might as try to pull the S of off Superman.

[Rookies]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Again, that flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army, not a flag adopted by any of the states of the confederacy. So, by your own words "Lee on his noble steed" is held up in some sort of regard, but the flag he used is to be flushed down the toilet because it has been perverted by the Klan and neo-nazis?

Like I said, I don't really care if it stays or goes...no sweat off my back. I just think it's kind of interesting how nobody really gave a crap until some nutjob goes and shoots up a church. And since this is primarily a liberal, left-wing crusade, it's also interesting how disrespectful the liberal, left-leaners are to the kind of people who were killed in that massacre...devout Christians...

The flag was changed because the South's military Generals (including Lee, no doubt) had concerns that the larger, white section (denoting the superiority of the White Race by its maker), could be mistaken in battle for 'Surrender/ Truce'. So, they simply eliminated that section, but NOBODY said: " Well, let's go back to the drawing board and reconfigure a flag that does not represent slavery and racial superiority- nobody. That, was the clear intended purpose, as previously passed and continued on for the next 150+ years as a symbol of same, morphing into non military battles of enfranchisement and segregation.

On those Christian families, I confess they are better persons than me, in that I (like many here) could never forgive the murderer of their families. I find the entire Church the most composed and respectful of all, during this terrible aftermath. With respect to their beliefs, yes I disagree with some of them and would debate them on that- which I have done with people like Boxie previously. We agree to disagree. What's wrong with that?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Rookies

We agree to disagree. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, but if you think that's how the majority of those with your political leanings feel towards them, you are living in a dream world.

Liberals and hardcore left-leaners hold devout Christians in contempt. They think of them as backward...unintelligent...not all that different from how the slave owners of the south thought about their slaves...

[Clocker]

Time to sanitize the military. The left is now offended by the names of certain US military bases which honor Confederate officers, such as Fort Bragg and Fort Hood, and wants them changed.

Wow, no one ever made the connection between the mass shooting at Fort Hood and the fact that the name of the place was politically incorrect. That had to be a contributing factor.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I know what they claim it means to them. What I need is an explanation is how they made the leap from it was originally (a symbol for an army that was trying to preserve slavery) to what they claim it means to them today.

You keep implying the war was 100% about slavery. The war was about secession. Lincoln was determined to keep the union whole. There was more than one reason for secession even if complaints related to slavery were the primary ones.

I think to a large extent the conservative south still resents the liberal north and obviously disagrees with it on a large list of issues. So even though all southerners are way past slavery and most are way past segregation and racism, the flag is still the unifying symbol of the values of the south vs the values of the north.

[PaceAdvantage]

The war was about slavery...let's not kid ourselves here...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...s-over/396482/

[Marshall Bennett]

It's all bullshit with the same theme. As soon as the flag dilemma settles, another demand will surface over something else found to be offensive.
Perhaps not in our lifetime, but eventually a breaking point will be reached and another civil war will ensue.
What happens after that? Perhaps more flags....

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The war was about slavery...let's not kid ourselves here...

It was not only about slavery.

Each of the states that seceded wrote a document explaining their reason for secession. These are documents that are not muddied by post war politics, the winner getting to write the history and place blame, the loser trying to make itself look better etc...

Unquestionably, the dominant reason for each state was slavery or issues related to slavery (like the north was not returning escaped slaves to their rightful owners in the south and things like that).

However, some of the states listed several reasons.

For example, a lot of what Texas complained about was related to not getting support from Washington to help fight Indians still in the territory and Mexicans coming across the border (which is kind of ironic ). So they concluded they would be better off being independent of the north to deal with those issues on their own as they saw fit.

There were some procedural issues that the south felt were not legal (some of which may have been related to slavery and some not).

There were a few other reasons, though clearly WAY smaller than slavery.

Lincoln himself was quoted as approximately saying he was more motivated to keep the union whole than he was to end slavery. He's seen as some great anti slavery icon, but that came later. He had some very racist views early on. One of the reasons he didn't want any new states to be slave states was because slave labor was undercutting the labor of whites and costing them jobs.