South Carolina Church Shootings

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by Tall One

Sad commentary indeed, Dart. News reported earlier that McConnell and Bevin have already voiced their approvals( ). I guess there'll be a petition soon to take down the statue of General John Hunt Morgan, and his mare Black Bess, from in front of the old court house here in Lexington.

Fun fact of sorts: Lincoln stands beside Davis in the rotunda.

It is so convenient to be able to rewrite history when the past becomes politically incorrect. It sounds like Jeff Davis and friends are soon to become non-persons.

Shades of "1984" and the old Soviet Union.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Originally Posted by Tom

If I remember correctly, all the official Clinton buttons had boobs on them somewhere.

They were underneath them!

[Marshall Bennett]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good.

For most, it's become a symbol of southern pride, totally disconnected from slavery and the civil war. The deep south, much like Cajun country, likes to consider itself in many ways independent of the rest of this screwed up world we live in. There will always be extremist that go further, but they are a minority and shouldn't be showcased as the rule as is being done now.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Tall One

. . .

Fun fact of sorts: Lincoln stands beside Davis in the rotunda.

And both men were born in Kentucky less than 100 miles from one another.

[reckless]

Originally Posted by Tall One

. . . In fact, if Virginia hadn't went with the South, Lee would've commanded for the North.

Originally Posted by Clocker

Yep. When war appeared inevitable, Lincoln promoted Lee, former Superintendent of West Point, to Major General and offered him command of the Union army. When Virginia seceded, Lee resigned his commission and returned home.

Originally Posted by Clocker

If you think the grunts on the ground in the Army of Northern Virginia were fighting for slavery, you need some remedial history lessons. They considered themselves to be citizens of Virginia first, and of the USA second. They were fighting against what they saw as an invasion of their homeland by an enemy force.

Thanks to both of you in reminding us, in part, the historical significance of both the symbolic Confederate Flag and the South's most favored son, General Robert E. Lee.

The citizens of the South indeed looked upon the North as being invaders who were forcing their radical way of life over their genteel traditions. Lee was present at the riot in Harper's Ferry, Va., which was led by abolitionist nut job John Brown from New England in an attack against the US Army.

A couple of thoughts to share: before and following the Civil War, Robert E. Lee was more of an anti-slavery advocate than Abraham Lincoln. Running for the US Senate and later for president, Lincoln never called for the abolition of slavery. But, thankfully, Lincoln eventually realized the moral aspect of the evils of slavery and his Emancipation Proclamation, may well have been the single most important executive order in the history of the USA.

After the Civil War, the federal US government confiscated (stole in less polite terms) Lee's farm and other properties, in addition to taking from him his right to vote.

[Ocala Mike]

Originally Posted by Marshall Bennett

For most, it's become a symbol of southern pride, totally disconnected from slavery and the civil war.

Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.

[Tall One]

Originally Posted by reckless

And both men were born in Kentucky less than 100 miles from one another.

Yessir. Kentucky's involvement in the war was very "unique" to say the least. Both men knew the importance of which side Kentucky landed, but nobody moreso than Lincoln.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good. Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery. I think it is safe to there was not an Abolitionist who fought under it. Today it supposed today represents "Southern Pride". How can you be proud of slave owners? Or people fighting to keep the slave owners in business? It is like the people who served in the German army during WWII claiming they were fighting for Germany and not Hitler and the NAZIs. I am not buying it.

What you are really arguing is that you do not understand why someone would choose that flag as their symbol. That's a reasonable question.

But what it actually does represent to some people is NOT all the things YOU PERSONALLY associate it with. That's the REALITY.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Clocker

If you think the grunts on the ground in the Army of Northern Virginia were fighting for slavery, you need some remedial history lessons. They considered themselves to be citizens of Virginia first, and of the USA second. They were fighting against what they saw as an invasion of their homeland by an enemy force.

Texas seceded to some extent because the people felt they weren't getting enough support from Washington against Indians and Mexicans and they were better off going at it alone.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

What you are really arguing is that you do not understand why someone would choose that flag as their symbol. That's a reasonable question.

But what it actually does represent to some people is NOT all the things YOU PERSONALLY associate it with. That's the REALITY.

I know what they claim it means to them. What I need is an explanation is how they made the leap from it was originally (a symbol for an army that was trying to preserve slavery) to what they claim it means to them today. I just don't see how anyone can get there. But I am willing to listen, but just don't try say it represents "southern pride" (actually "southern white pride") without explaining why and why it doesn't represent racism.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.

Your belief is not required.
That is why we call it freedom of speech (expression)

But everyone is doing a stellar job of totally ignoring the real problems and doing a lot of warm and fuzzy stuff. Wal Mart will stoop selling the flag but still sell guns. That is all I need to hear to know which side I am on.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by reckless

Thanks to both of you in reminding us, in part, the historical significance of both the symbolic Confederate Flag and the South's most favored son, General Robert E. Lee.

The citizens of the South indeed looked upon the North as being invaders who were forcing their radical way of life over their genteel traditions. Lee was present at the riot in Harper's Ferry, Va., which was led by abolitionist nut job John Brown from New England in an attack against the US Army.

A couple of thoughts to share: before and following the Civil War, Robert E. Lee was more of an anti-slavery advocate than Abraham Lincoln. Running for the US Senate and later for president, Lincoln never called for the abolition of slavery. But, thankfully, Lincoln eventually realized the moral aspect of the evils of slavery and his Emancipation Proclamation, may well have been the single most important executive order in the history of the USA.

After the Civil War, the federal US government confiscated (stole in less polite terms) Lee's farm and other properties, in addition to taking from him his right to vote.

The southern states did not succeed from the union because they thought Lincoln was going to keep slavery. They succeed because they saw what they thought was the "hand writing on the wall". That hand writing they thought they saw said " Lincoln is going to abolish slavery". To state otherwise is just plain not true.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

I wish somebody would explain by what perverted logic how that flag could represent a anything good. Because when it was in use, it was the flag of an army who was to a man fighting to preserve slavery. I think it is safe to there was not an Abolitionist who fought under it. Today it supposed today represents "Southern Pride". How can you be proud of slave owners? Or people fighting to keep the slave owners in business? It is like the people who served in the German army during WWII claiming they were fighting for Germany and not Hitler and the NAZIs. I am not buying it.

Of course you're not buying it...you're a black and white kind of guy, immune to shades of grey...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Ocala Mike

Disconnecting it from slavery and the civil war and displaying it as a symbol of southern pride is a leap that's hard for me to believe. I like Lowenbrau beer, but I'm not gonna fly a swastika.

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Keep equating the Nazis to the Confederates...I'm about to vomit...maybe you can push me over the edge.

I don't think that's what he was doing. Merely using it as an example. I don't take it the way you are.