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Old 09-20-2017, 05:07 PM   #121
Elliott Sidewater
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Yes, that's right. The trainers and owners complained to the racing sec'y that Gill was claiming every good horse they had, and Delaware buckled and told him he wasn't welcome there. That was long before his involvement in the sinking of the SS Integrity at Penn National.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:36 PM   #122
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If that is how you take my response, so be it. I've put just as many hours into this game over 30 years as you have and I think this dismissive attitude towards the game is the cancer that is eroding it day by day. If you want to act as if this is nothing significant, you're entitled to your opinion. I happen to think this is a microcosm (or maybe a full blown example) of how low American racing has allowed itself to get. While he may be joking in the video, his middle finger to American racing over the years with obvious nefarious activity is sickening. I think it is people like this that have taken the game to unimaginable depths. If you see nothing wrong with that, we'll agree to disagree.

As a counter to that despicable attitude, why don't you give a look at this video regarding Winx and the connections associated if you want to remind yourself what true class looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0FZ6vqH8Y4
Thanks, but if I needed a lecture I would have called my mother.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:59 PM   #123
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I'm FAR from a fan of Navarro. But you have to catch him actually doing something wrong to kick the guy out of the sport in my opinion. That video is no way enough to do that.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:02 PM   #124
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Yes, that's right. The trainers and owners complained to the racing sec'y that Gill was claiming every good horse they had, and Delaware buckled and told him he wasn't welcome there. That was long before his involvement in the sinking of the SS Integrity at Penn National.
Thanks, thought it was something like that.
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:15 PM   #125
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In a sport in a death spiral where most bettors, even the general public,m view the sport as a cess pool off cheaters, throw in the video and other positives, I see no reason why the guy should be given the benefit of doubt. He made his bed by acting a fool in public.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 PM   #126
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Thanks, but if I needed a lecture I would have called my mother.
Sorry you felt the need to defend yourself with a snide comment. I think there actually is a relevant discussion regarding this but unfortunately they usually digress into defensive posturing on social media.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:21 PM   #127
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I'm FAR from a fan of Navarro. But you have to catch him actually doing something wrong to kick the guy out of the sport in my opinion. That video is no way enough to do that.
You're 100% correct if we were in normal times and business as usual. I think there is an onslaught of negativity impacting the health of the sport and leaders should take a much tougher, less politically correct stance in how they penalize those who jeopardize the thing that matters most...integrity.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:39 PM   #128
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idk if the other half dozen fans in the clubhouse would've appreciated it but I was planning on stealing the "adios amigos" line to root home a winner last week at live racing.

several poor breaks and lost jockeys later though it was just "adios."

maybe this week!
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:39 AM   #129
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I'm FAR from a fan of Navarro. But you have to catch him actually doing something wrong to kick the guy out of the sport in my opinion. That video is no way enough to do that.
Agree 100%, in addition his owner was the one who started the mess. Navarro looks really bad in the video but certainly not enough to ban him from racing at this point.

Where are the failed tests from the Monmouth meet? If he is who people think he is then there has to be proof, until then not much I think you can do.

I think we all have our beliefs as to what's going on but until there is concrete evidence and more than some goof ball owner acting like a complete tool I would say there isn't much that can be done, other than what they have.

Catch the guy, then ban him. Until then all eyes on Mr Navarro

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Old 09-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #130
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Agree 100%, in addition his owner was the one who started the mess. Navarro looks really bad in the video but certainly not enough to ban him from racing at this point.

Where are the failed tests from the Monmouth meet? If he is who people think he is then there has to be proof, until then not much I think you can do.

I think we all have our beliefs as to what's going on but until there is concrete evidence and more than some goof ball owner acting like a complete tool I would say there isn't much that can be done, other than what they have.

Catch the guy, then ban him. Until then all eyes on Mr Navarro
He has no other positives in his history?
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:01 AM   #131
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He has no other positives in his history?
He does, but you can say that about nearly every other trainer too.

I feel dirty even slightly defending Navarro.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:58 AM   #132
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He does, but you can say that about nearly every other trainer too.

I feel dirty even slightly defending Navarro.
I think you combine all the factors and really its the tracks decision. If someone is bad for your business you dont do business with them.

Happened to Michael Gill. Not sure any of his trainers have ever recovered, Scott Lake, Cananni, etc
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:26 PM   #133
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He does, but you can say that about nearly every other trainer too.

I feel dirty even slightly defending Navarro.
All of these supertrainers have found out how to game the system. If horse racing only reacts to positive tests, nothing will change. My guess is nothing will change because the cheaters are many steps ahead of the testers. There is no debate possible that Navarro is taking an edge to get his results. The data confirms it.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:43 PM   #134
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Navarro is vilified because he lives at the bottom of the food chain. What about the guys at the top? Ellis who got caught at the Breeder's Cup lives to fight another day, and Navarro, who uttered a few words is vilified? Whatever happened to freedom of speech? He has not been caught yet, until then, they have nothing to go on. Can't convict on innuendo! So if he is bad for business, so are some of the NY atop trainer. Is it really fun betting grass races, where between two guys, they control more than half the field? Why are these guys not banned? Oh yeah, they control and train for the "Kentucky Bluebloods," who live in another complete world. They collect horses like we use to collect baseball cards as kids.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:04 PM   #135
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What did we learn from Penn? The trainers know in advance what drugs are being tested for. Is it a stretch to say that some trainers might say, "If they are testing for these drugs, let's use another drug that is not being tested for."? The next step is fines and suspensions. The fines are not large enough, and the suspensions are not long enough. By the time a positive for a drug test found, the damage has already been done. The customer is screwed, the purse is redistributed, the owners and the trainers of the losing side are compensated. Besides increasing fines and suspensions, compensate the customer. If the customer keeps their losing ticket, re-figure the pools, pay the customer and have the offending trainer make up the loss to the track.
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