Tax rules regarding Teller/at-the-track/Simulcast winnings

[Robert Fischer]

As opposed to ADW play, I'm asking about Play in person Add an OTB or simulcast Or at a track.

I need to get my information straight. I know that there was favorable rule changes Fairly recently.

First I need to know the rules regarding 'signers'
Total large amounts
and also Separate tickets
Amount??
x/1 odds win
( example: everything over say $10,000 always regardless of odds, everything >$5,000 but only if it is more than 300/1 payout for cost of wager?... Etc... )
???

Then I want to know separate tickets
Example- i have ten $1,000 winners... Will I be subject if cash all of them at once?
What if i cash them at different area of tellers or different days?

Thanks

[ScottJ]

Your best source of detailed examples can be found at : https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2017-20720.pdf.

The detailed examples on pages 15-16 should help answer your queries.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

...First I need to know the rules regarding 'signers'

...Then I want to know separate tickets
Example- i have ten $1,000 winners... Will I be subject if cash all of them at once?
What if i cash them at different area of tellers or different days?

Robert, as user "clean money", your questions seem to be in conflict with IRS intentions.... And asking these types of questions on the internet is, well, not going to look good if the Tax Man comes a knockin'....

AFAIK, the recent rule changes raised the minimum amount for takeout on signers from $1K to $5 or $10K, but paperwork still needs to be done for anything that's 300x the wager. So the $600 level is still in play.

If you have ten $1K winners, the rules used to clearly state that ALL the same winning tickets needed to be combined for reporting purposes. So cashing at different tellers or on different days would only increase the odds of an audit, IMHO. Of course, you could hope the hapless and incompetence of the IRS would never connect the transactions....

There may be other angles, but the only advantage I can think of for "in person" play vs. the ADWs, is when wagering larger amounts and showing profits from non-IRS tickets. IE, $2000 to win on a 15-1 shot gets back $30K but no paper/electronic trail. Assuming the track/OTB can cough up the cash...which is getting more difficult as the war on cash continues.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Your best source of detailed examples can be found at : https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2017-20720.pdf.

The detailed examples on pages 15-16 should help answer your queries.

Thanks. Reading this now.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

Robert, as user "clean money", your questions seem to be in conflict with IRS intentions.... And asking these types of questions on the internet is, well, not going to look good if the Tax Man comes a knockin'....

AFAIK, the recent rule changes raised the minimum amount for takeout on signers from $1K to $5 or $10K, but paperwork still needs to be done for anything that's 300x the wager. So the $600 level is still in play.

If you have ten $1K winners, the rules used to clearly state that ALL the same winning tickets needed to be combined for reporting purposes. So cashing at different tellers or on different days would only increase the odds of an audit, IMHO. Of course, you could hope the hapless and incompetence of the IRS would never connect the transactions....

There may be other angles, but the only advantage I can think of for "in person" play vs. the ADWs, is when wagering larger amounts and showing profits from non-IRS tickets. IE, $2000 to win on a 15-1 shot gets back $30K but no paper/electronic trail. Assuming the track/OTB can cough up the cash...which is getting more difficult as the war on cash continues.

-Good Stuff ( and still reading Scott's material, excuse any contradictions.

2nd example is one of my questions.
If i had $2k win on 15-1 , ret $30k , there's no paper trail whatsoever for $30k because of it not 300/1?

(yes, if >300/1 i'd cash at same time and combine for reporting purposes)

(& yea, I don't like carrying a bag of cash, and not quitting, so both Teller and I would be happy to cash a small amount and structure vouchers for remaining amount).

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Your best source of detailed examples can be found at : https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2017-20720.pdf.

The detailed examples on pages 15-16 should help answer your queries.

I don't understand 'example 10'.

It says that "pursuant to paragraph D" the player completes a W-2G and provides to both tellers.
However, it then goes on to state that because it isn't 300/1 that it's not subject to withholding or reporting.

-So why does the player in example 10 fill out the W-2G (meaning is it simply proper legal protocol and documentation, or is there some form of reporting that I'm missing?)

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

I don't understand 'example 10'.

It says that "pursuant to paragraph D" the player completes a W-2G and provides to both tellers.
However, it then goes on to state that because it isn't 300/1 that it's not subject to withholding or reporting.

-So why does the player in example 10 fill out the W-2G (meaning is it simply proper legal protocol and documentation, or is there some form of reporting that I'm missing?)

Yea ( and So interested in Scott or anybody else has an opinion )
Example 10Seems to me just about clarifying the couple of different things at once. Since it is not 300-1Then there is no paper trail Other than your own good records for when you file it in your taxes.
I also talked to a couple of good players, and both confirmed.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Example 10 is a little confusing, as it seems to imply tax forms are filled out, but then are not really needed as the windfall was not 300-1. But the way I understand the tax codes, there are some thresholds in which the "odds" are not a factor - just the net profit. For example, a common football bet in Vegas in the not-so-distant past was for big betters to stay just under a $20K payout, with about half of that profit, as it required filling out a W2G. I believe it's the same with a slots jackpot. In football, with 11-10 odds on most lines, I think many bettors just wagered $9900 and got back a profit of $9000, cashing for $18,900 and not needing to fill out any IRS paperwork.

Cashing at two different windows for wagers on the same race would be something I wouldn't want to explain if I was audited. And any player betting large amounts of money is going to have to keep a pretty detailed and accurate log, regardless. That's assuming that "signers" occur fairly often, or large wagers of cash are tracked to some extent by the facilities.

Back in the 1950s, with racing being much more popular and the network of bookies being much larger, it was easier to stay under the radar when it came to earnings and profits from the ponies. A much tougher row to hoe these days, with my best guess is that some of the more successful "syndicates" use multiple runners to avoid the tax paper trail. It's not so difficult to explain multiple wagers made over the betting timeframe for a race. But cashing them in small batches raises some eyebrows, and nobody wants that at the track....