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02-07-2023, 10:44 AM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
Not with state and md sports authority money
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Money is fungible. They can put different money into it.
Look, the reality is the best case scenario for these investments is with respect to baseball and/or a combined basketball-hockey arena. In those cases you have something that will be used at least 80 times a year, plus a lot of other indoor events in the case of the arena. And yet even then, a lot of economists' research shows that the public funds aren't worth it.
That's why you see these things now packaged with mixed use, but you can do the mixed use without the sports arena and you get the same benefits. The mixed use stuff is just putting lipstick on the pig.
When you get past baseball and the combined arena, you get to things that aren't used a lot at all. A one-sport arena gets used 40 times a year plus some concerts. A football stadium 10 times a year. And compared to the public subsidies being thrown at them, it's ridiculous. You are basically paying someone to keep a large valuable parcel of land vacant most of the year.
Pimlico's the worst case scenario of all- it draws a big crowd 2 days a year-- the Preakness, and the day before the Preakness. That's it. And it takes up a very large parcel of incredibly valuable land. If it weren't for the ego value of the Preakness to Baltimore officials, they'd never do this at all. There's just no way the economics works out on any of this.
And in serving their egos, the officials are not serving their constituents. If I lived in Baltimore I'd be incredibly pissed off about all of this-- basically an incredible waste of tax revenue in a struggling city because some politicians will feel emasculated if Stronach moves the Preakness to Lone Star or Santa Anita.
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02-07-2023, 12:40 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 774
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The large grandstand is for twice a year. The racing surface and property is used many times per year.
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02-07-2023, 01:39 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustin Stones
The large grandstand is for twice a year. The racing surface and property is used many times per year.
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The large grandstand is what costs tons of money to rebuild. Without the ego fix of the Preakness, most likely they'd just move everything to Laurel (which makes sense for the same reason it made sense to close 1 of the Bay Area tracks and 1 of the Southern California tracks). But if they did keep Pimlico, they could build something nice and modern and simulcast-oriented there and repurpose a bunch more of the land for the mixed use stuff that is supposedly so great, basically the way new Gulfstream was supposed to be. And then run the Preakness at Laurel or at Santa Anita or something.
So there's no way to view this other than as a huge taxpayer subsidy for something that happens one day (or if you want to be generous, two days) a year. And that's just crazy. Move the Preakness and do something else with this.
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02-07-2023, 02:22 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Pimlico's the worst case scenario of all- it draws a big crowd 2 days a year-- the Preakness, and the day before the Preakness. That's it. And it takes up a very large parcel of incredibly valuable land. If it weren't for the ego value of the Preakness to Baltimore officials, they'd never do this at all. There's just no way the economics works out on any of this.
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Speaking as a long-suffering Maryland taxpayer, this sums it up pretty well. I'd say the ego value extends more broadly to "Maryland" officials, not just "Baltimore", but the end result is the same.
In my view, Maryland horse racing would be best served by having one venue - but that's tough to do in reality. Pimlico is land-locked and Laurel sits on ground that is now deemed more environmentally sensitive than back in "the day" when racetracks were built. I've always thought it made most sense to consolidate at Laurel, but realize there's another point of view.
The Preakness seems to be sacred ground, so to speak, for Maryland politicians. It may take a generational shift before that position changes.
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02-07-2023, 02:47 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 274
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Large Grandstands
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
The large grandstand is what costs tons of money to rebuild. Without the ego fix of the Preakness, most likely they'd just move everything to Laurel (which makes sense for the same reason it made sense to close 1 of the Bay Area tracks and 1 of the Southern California tracks). But if they did keep Pimlico, they could build something nice and modern and simulcast-oriented there and repurpose a bunch more of the land for the mixed use stuff that is supposedly so great, basically the way new Gulfstream was supposed to be. And then run the Preakness at Laurel or at Santa Anita or something.
So there's no way to view this other than as a huge taxpayer subsidy for something that happens one day (or if you want to be generous, two days) a year. And that's just crazy. Move the Preakness and do something else with this.
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Assuming the NYRA plan goes forward, and Belmont's grandstand is torn down, they won't have room for 100k people either
Ky Derby could be the only facility left with a large grandstand for the Triple Crown
Given what Belmont's plans are, is there a need for a new Pimlico grandstand, rather just run the race, use the infield for a party, and pitch a few tents where the current grandstand is and you are done
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02-07-2023, 04:01 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
If I lived in Baltimore I'd be incredibly pissed off about all of this-- basically an incredible waste of tax revenue in a struggling city because some politicians will feel emasculated if Stronach moves the Preakness to Lone Star or Santa Anita.
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I don't think that anybody in Baltimore City is going to be upset when money from Annapolis gets poured into Park Heights.
I think if 2019 taught anybody anything about this situation, the Preakness is not leaving Baltimore City so long as there's an oval to run it on at Pimlico.
There's never been anything stopping another track from running an age-restricted race for 3 year olds on the third Saturday of May, so Loan Star, Sunland, Emerald, a county fair in California, etc. are all welcome to throw as much money as they want towards one. The Triple Crown stops in Baltimore City.
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02-07-2023, 09:24 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeryOldMan
Speaking as a long-suffering Maryland taxpayer, this sums it up pretty well. I'd say the ego value extends more broadly to "Maryland" officials, not just "Baltimore", but the end result is the same.
In my view, Maryland horse racing would be best served by having one venue - but that's tough to do in reality. Pimlico is land-locked and Laurel sits on ground that is now deemed more environmentally sensitive than back in "the day" when racetracks were built. I've always thought it made most sense to consolidate at Laurel, but realize there's another point of view.
The Preakness seems to be sacred ground, so to speak, for Maryland politicians. It may take a generational shift before that position changes.
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I believe the very ground at Pimlico is an historical place. And that the Preakness should be run there. I don't think the property should be repurposed and the race moved to Laurel. And Maryland benefits commercially from the symbol of Triple Crown ancestry. Maryland should want to preserve both the event and the place where it is run every year. I don't believe it's necessary to sink money into a large grandstand used twice a year in order to ensure this. It will take some money to make the property safe for visitors, but focus on that and the quality of race surface. We want to be fair to the taxpayers in Maryland while continuing to enjoy our traditions.
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02-08-2023, 09:20 AM
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
I don't think that anybody in Baltimore City is going to be upset when money from Annapolis gets poured into Park Heights.
I think if 2019 taught anybody anything about this situation, the Preakness is not leaving Baltimore City so long as there's an oval to run it on at Pimlico.
There's never been anything stopping another track from running an age-restricted race for 3 year olds on the third Saturday of May, so Loan Star, Sunland, Emerald, a county fair in California, etc. are all welcome to throw as much money as they want towards one. The Triple Crown stops in Baltimore City.
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As a matter of law, that's wrong. Stronach can run the Preakness wherever he wants and Baltimore has to pay him not to. That's why we are in this mess.
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02-08-2023, 10:43 AM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheffwed
Assuming the NYRA plan goes forward, and Belmont's grandstand is torn down, they won't have room for 100k people either
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I believe Belmont is going to open the infield for big race days. I have no idea what the combined grandstand/infield capacity will be, but that's one hell of a large infield to work with. We'll see.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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02-08-2023, 04:21 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
As a matter of law, that's wrong. Stronach can run the Preakness wherever he wants and Baltimore has to pay him not to. That's why we are in this mess.
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Technically it's Belinda's company now...
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02-08-2023, 04:40 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
As a matter of law, that's wrong. Stronach can run the Preakness wherever he wants and Baltimore has to pay him not to. That's why we are in this mess.
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(S)he can't run it at Laurel and if s(he) tries, Baltimore City uses eminent domain on Pimlico and it gets run there. It's not leaving Baltimore City, Stronach should probably lobby a little harder or put up some money to redevelop Pimlico. Love it, hate it, who cares - that's the reality of the situation and why it's still being run at Pimlico despite Stronach's planned obsolescence of the facilities.
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02-08-2023, 11:05 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
(S)he can't run it at Laurel and if s(he) tries, Baltimore City uses eminent domain on Pimlico and it gets run there. It's not leaving Baltimore City, Stronach should probably lobby a little harder or put up some money to redevelop Pimlico. Love it, hate it, who cares - that's the reality of the situation and why it's still being run at Pimlico despite Stronach's planned obsolescence of the facilities.
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Um, no. The Preakness is intellectual property (specifically a trademark) protected under the federal Lanham Act. Under Article VI of the United States Constitution any attempt by Maryland or Baltimore to interfere with those rights is entirely void. (In addition Stronach has contractual rights under the agreements with NYRA and Churchill which create the Triple Crown and which Maryland and Baltimore also cannot in any way impair, but we don't even have to get to that.
Again, that is why we are here. The only way Baltimore can ensure Stronach doesn't take the Preakness somewhere else is to pay to keep it there. They can't pass any laws to try and force Srronach's hand- thise laws will be unenforceable and the race can be held anywhere Stronach wants it.
I might add: even if Baltimore somehow COULD seize it, they'd still have to pay just compensation to Stronach under the 5th Amendment, which would be a ton of money. Indeed, it would be an even more blatant misuse of public taxpayer money than even subsidizing the renovation of the track.
And in the end, they would end up purchasing a worthless trademark, because Stronach could just change the name of the race, put it on NBC and make the renamed race rhe second leg of the TC.
Baltimore needs to just stop.
Last edited by dilanesp; 02-08-2023 at 11:15 PM.
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