Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Your response to this major question is like I am listening to a two year old. Let me know when you grow up.

Mr. Empty Suit, you should listen to yourself. All you have for "answers" are ad hominem attacks. You're so intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, it's all that you have left. Pathetic!

As the article said, if you had bothered to read it, is that God gave man the faculty of will. Since God is love and he loves freely, he has given us, as his image bearers, that same capability. Genuine love cannot be given and reciprocated if it's forced. Therefore, when men freely choose to disobey the Greatest Commandment (love for God), which would invariably manifest itself in a life of real, albeit imperfect, obedience to all his holy commandments, then such men have considered themselves unworthy of God's great salvation. Their punishment is just! They will reap in the next life what they have sown in this one. Such people "send" themselves to hell! As Lewis essentially said, God will tell all rebellious sinners on the last day, "Your will be done"! How in the world, could that possibly be unjust!?

As I've said many times before, the Cross of Christ manifests both the love and justice of God. These two qualities are not mutually exclusive. In fact, God's holy love itself will always manifest itself in perfect justice, whereby He will render to every man according to his deeds. It must! Otherwise, God could not be love! For the very essence of love is morality and virtue. Since love can do no wrong, then God's justice will always be perfect and fair.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Empty Suit, you should listen to yourself. All you have for "answers" are ad hominem attacks. You're so intellectually and spiritually bankrupt, it's all that you have left. Pathetic!

As the article said, if you had bothered to read it, is that God gave man the faculty of will. Since God is love and he loves freely, he has given us, as his image bearers, that same capability. Genuine love cannot be given and reciprocated if it's forced. Therefore, when men freely choose to disobey the Greatest Commandment (love for God), which would invariably manifest itself in a life of real, albeit imperfect, obedience to all his holy commandments, then such men have considered themselves unworthy of God's great salvation. Their punishment is just! They will reap in the next life what they have sown in this one. Such people "send" themselves to hell! As Lewis essentially said, God will tell all rebellious sinners on the last day, "Your will be done"! How in the world, could that possibly be unjust!?

As I've said many times before, the Cross of Christ manifests both the love and justice of God. These two qualities are not mutually exclusive. In fact, God's holy love itself will always manifest itself in perfect justice, whereby He will render to every man according to his deeds. It must! Otherwise, God could not be love! For the very essence of love is morality and virtue. Since love can do no wrong, then God's justice will always be perfect and fair.

You have the wrong image of God. Didn't you get the point of the "Prodigal son"?

The point of the "Prodigal son" was that God does not base his love for us on our "performance" here on Earth. His love for us is that he created our soul in the first place. That we are his creation that he is proud of, his child. Our mistakes do not surprise him.

Look, the Bible is one dimensional. It says Good=Heaven, Bad=Hell. This is a world of duality and separation.

God is multidimensional. God does not operate in the world of duality nor separation. Good and Bad are one. God is one. For example you may say life =good and death=bad. But in God's world and reality, life and death are linked and are part of the same cycle. There is no separation nor duality.

This is because God has a much greater consciousness that humans. It's the equivalent of our consciousness being a grain of sand and God's consciousness being the entire planet.

Back to the Hell question. Buddha said (paraphrasing) "why do I want to go to Heaven,everything is fine there so send me to Hell so I can help".

This is what Jesus did as well. He hung out with the downtrodden and sinners,not the wealthy or high and mighty.

In the Bible Zacchaeus was the most despised tax collector, but when thousands came out to see Jesus in a parade, Jesus saw Zacchaeus and told him he wanted to come over to his house for dinner. Why did he choose one of the worst sinners there. He was considered scum. Because God does not hold our performance in this world against us. He sees much deeper into us than you think.

The concept you have of an angry God who loves this and hates that is misplaced.

In Hinduism God is broken up into separate deities as opposed to the Christian God who appears to love and hate in the Bible. In Hinduism the God Shiva is known as "The Destroyer". If you were a follower of Hinduism you would think that if you do something bad, Shiva will destroy you. The equivalent of your mistaking that if you do something bad God will destroy you and send you to Hell.

But that's because you don't understand what Shiva or God destroys. Its not you but your attachments to things that take you away from your true self which is God.

Hell does exist but many Nde's who went to Hell were saved by God once they reached out to him. It is not forever. Also God does not send anyone there. You send yourself. Your soul will gravitate to what is in your heart. However no matter how lost a soul seems, there is always gold at the core of any heart because a soul cannot be created by anyone other than God. You can say its Rosemary's baby but then it isn't real. If its a real soul, then it has God in it. He has the patent.

[ReplayRandall]

Light, did you read what you typed before posting it?....Boxcar is going to have a Field Day with you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You have the wrong image of God. Didn't you get the point of the "Prodigal son"?

Oh...citing "irrelevant" scripture again that was written by "fearful, ignorant, superstitious and absolutely stupid men, and not God" (to borrow your words)? Your self-awareness batteries are continually running on low, aren't they? Do you ever listen to yourself? You have zero sense of your duplicity, hypocrisy and self-deception!

The point of the "Prodigal son" was that God does not base his love for us on our "performance" here on Earth. His love for us is that he created our soul in the first place. That we are his creation that he is proud of, his child. Our mistakes do not surprise him.

The point of the Prodigal Son was that the son came to his senses and repented of his sins, and with such God is always pleased and welcomed by him.

Isa 66:2b
But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
NASB

Jesus invites all to Him who are sin-weary and burdened with their sins!

Matt 11:28-30
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
NIV

The Prodigal fits these descriptions beautifully, which is why his father RAN to him!

Look, the Bible is one dimensional. It says Good=Heaven, Bad=Hell. This is a world of duality and separation.

God is multidimensional. God does not operate in the world of duality nor separation. Good and Bad are one. God is one. For example you may say life =good and death=bad. But in God's world and reality, life and death are linked and are part of the same cycle. There is no separation nor duality.

This is because God has a much greater consciousness that humans. It's the equivalent of our consciousness being a grain of sand and God's consciousness being the entire planet.

Spare me such "enlightenment"; for your wisdom is foolishness to God. You're going to presume to wax spiritually enlightened when you have yet to be right with so much as one single passage of scripture you have hypocritically cited or quoted!" Spare me the inane sermon!

Back to the Hell question. Buddha said (paraphrasing) "why do I want to go to Heaven,everything is fine there so send me to Hell so I can help".

And God said to Big Bud, "Thy will be done...for all eternity"....because that's how long it would take before your buddy Bud's "help" would become efficacious!

This is what Jesus did as well. He hung out with the downtrodden and sinners,not the wealthy or high and mighty.

You just cannot listen to yourself, can you? You should be very slow to speak and quick to listen, so that you may learn something. Yet, your brain can never keep step with your tongue! Have you ever stopped to think there was a reason why Jesus didn't hang out with the "wealthy or high and mighty"?

Luke 5:31-32
31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 [b]I have not come to call the righteous , but sinners to repentance."[/bi]
NIV

But of the proud and arrogant and self-righteous, it is written:

James 4:6
6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."
NIV

And,

Prov 6:16-17
6 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood...
NIV

And,

Prov 8:13
3 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
NIV


Ps 138:6
Though the LORD is on high, he looks upon the lowly,
but the proud he knows from afar.
NIV

In the Bible Zacchaeus was the most despised tax collector, but when thousands came out to see Jesus in a parade, Jesus saw Zacchaeus and told him he wanted to come over to his house for dinner. Why did he choose one of the worst sinners there. He was considered scum. Because God does not hold our performance in this world against us. He sees much deeper into us than you think.

You are as estranged from the Word of God as you from its Author the Living Word, never knowing of what you speak! Jesus effectually called Zacchaeus; and this tax collector joyfully and eagerly answered the call! And Jesus, likewise, welcomed this repentant sinner into his company! How do we know this was a humble, repentant sinner? The text tells us!

Luke 19:8
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
NIV

That, sir, is a repentant sinner with a changed heart! The love of God was in that man's soul!

Further, this tax collector is an excellent illustration of another truth Jesus taught:

John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
NIV

And that is precisely what happened with Zacchaeus! Picture-perfect example of applied biblical theology. This man sought Jesus out because the First Person of the Trinity drew him to the Second Person, and Jesus who always did his Father's will called the this tax collector to himself.

The biblical concept you have of an angry God who loves this and hates that is misplaced.

FTFY. Hypocrite!

In Hinduism God is broken up into separate deities as opposed to the Christian God who appears to love and hate in the Bible. In Hinduism the God Shiva is known as "The Destroyer". If you were a follower of Hinduism you would think that if you do something bad, Shiva will destroy you. The equivalent of your mistaking that if you do something bad God will destroy you and send you to Hell.

But that's because you don't understand what Shiva or God destroys. Its not you but your attachments to things that take you away from your true self which is God.

Hell does exist but many Nde's who went to Hell were saved by God once they reached out to him. It is not forever. Also God does not send anyone there. You send yourself. Your soul will gravitate to what is in your heart. However no matter how lost a soul seems, there is always gold at the core of any heart because a soul cannot be created by anyone other than God. You can say its Rosemary's baby but then it isn't real. If its a real soul, then it has God in it. He has the patent.

Oh...kinda like how your brain is scattered all over the place which accounts for your acute cognitive dissonance which constantly shines through in your posts.

[Actor]

In a previous post I pointed out that the trick of turning water into wine (which any magician in Las Vegas can perform) was described by Hero of Alexandria who is believed to have lived from about 10 C.E. to 70 C.E. Quite likely the writers of the Gospel of John were aware of the trick and incorporated it into their story. (Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the water-into-wine story appears in the other three gospels.)

However, just for the sake of argument let's assume that Jesus tale is at least partially true. The story has Joseph, Mary and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod. Exactly where in Egypt would they go? Most likely Alexandria whose population at that time included many Jews.

Now although Hero did describe the trick it's unlikely that he invented it. Spending his childhood in Alexandria he could have learned the trick and then used it years later at the Cana wedding.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...kinda like how your brain is scattered all over the place ...

I.e., logic is a sin.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I.e., logic is a sin.

Actually, Logic is an oxymoron to many people.

[boxcar]

Mr. Actor, in today's world most people shun critical thinking. They'd rather be told what to think and how to think.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Light, did you read what you typed before posting it?....Boxcar is going to have a Field Day with you.

Anyone who essentially says that "good and evil are one", clearly intimating there's no distinction between them, has never had both feet touching the ground all at once and simultaneously. But that's what Far East meditation hockus pokus does to the human mind -- it separates a person from reality as we all know it, i.e. -- from Natural Revelation and Special Revelation (the bible). Light is totally off the charts.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Actor, in today's world most people shun critical thinking. They'd rather be told what to think and how to think.

Sadly that is true. But there's hope. Atheism is growing and church attendance is falling.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...citing "irrelevant" scripture again that was written by "fearful, ignorant, superstitious and absolutely stupid men, and not God" (to borrow your words)? Your self-awareness batteries are continually running on low, aren't they? Do you ever listen to yourself? You have zero sense of your duplicity, hypocrisy and self-deception!

If I don't cite the scriptures, you say its invalid because its not in scripture. So I am only trying to accommodate your weak minded beliefs.

Originally Posted by boxcar

The point of the Prodigal Son was that the son came to his senses and repented of his sins, and with such God is always pleased and welcomed by him.

The prodigal son never repented for anything, nor did his father mention what he did. It was love that brought the prodigal son back and love is why the father welcomed him back with open arms without judgement.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Spare me such "enlightenment";

I'm not interested in enlightening you. You're an idiot.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...kinda like how your brain is scattered all over the place ....

I'm aware that I am way over your head.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Anyone who essentially says that "good and evil are one", clearly intimating there's no distinction between them, has never had both feet touching the ground all at once and simultaneously. But that's what Far East meditation hockus pokus does to the human mind -- it separates a person from reality as we all know it, i.e. -- from Natural Revelation and Special Revelation (the bible). Light is totally off the charts.

And you have proved that you border on mental retardation with that statement. Quote me where I used the word "evil" regarding oneness.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

If I don't cite the scriptures, you say its invalid because its not in scripture. So I am only trying to accommodate your weak minded beliefs.

But I'd have far more respect for you if you didn't cite or quote scriptures because that would show you're acting in a way that is consistent with your hatred for the truth of God's Word.

Also, you're a liar! You cite and quote and cherry-pick scriptures whenever you think they support your views.

The prodigal son never repented for anything, nor did his father mention what he did. It was love that brought the prodigal son back and love is why the father welcomed him back with open arms without judgement.

Seriously!? It just happens to be the quintessential parable in the NT that teaches us what real repentance looks like! You even admit in the paragraph above that it was "love that brought the prodigal son back"...BACK from what to what!? What you wrote even implies that the son had a change of heart...of mind! And that is the essence of what is repentance is!


Luke 15:11-32
11 Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13 "Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 "When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 "The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25 "Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28 "The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31 "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"
NIV

The fact that you cannot understand the clear teaching of this parable brings to mind something else your "best friend" said:

Matt 13:13-15
13 This is why I speak to them in parables :

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
NIV

Jesus had you and all the rest of your kind of this world in mind when he spoke those words!

And for your info, God never judges a humble, contrite, repentant sinner! God is eager to forgive such people, as demonstrated in the prodigal parable. Such people are always welcome to Him. But the proud, the arrogant, the rebellious, the smug, the self-important, the self-centered, the self-loving, the autonomy-seeking, self-righteous people of this world will be judged, found guilty and condemned forever in the lake of fire on the last day.

P.S. And before you tell me how full of hate I am by saying this, I would remind you hate and love must also be one, just as good and evil are! So you have no grounds for complaint.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Back to the Hell question. Buddha said (paraphrasing) "why do I want to go to Heaven,everything is fine there so send me to Hell so I can help".

What a foolish wanna-be guru Buddha was! Did he think God's arm was too short to save those in hell if he had a mind to do so? Buddha was so arrogant that he thought he could do something that God couldn't?

Isa 50:2b
2b Was my arm too short to ransom you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
NIV

Not only that but Big Bud was infinitely more stupid than those "fearful, ignorant, superstitious and absolutely stupid men" (your words) who wrote the books of the bible. They leave your bosom bud Bud so far behind that he's always choking on their dust clouds! At least they understood the Law of Identity (as expressed in scripture), which many philosophers consider to be so fundamental to the other laws of logic that they call it the First Law of Logic. It's easy to understand why they would think that way. Imagine a world in which we get up one morning and our sweet little furry feline critter had turned in to a wild, mean, voracious wolf over night! Or we step outside of the house to discover that our nicely manicured, green lawn turned into a dry desolate looking desert overnight. Or the trees in our yard turned into huge rocks, etc., etc. How would any of us ever be able to make sense of such a world when things around us would constantly become something today that they weren't yesterday!? The Law of Identity, though, adds stability to our world. In fact, without this Law science wouldn't be possible because nothing would ever be predictable -- except that everything around us can suddenly and for no explicable reason become something that it wasn't. Thank God for the Law of Identity! This law is stated in various ways. My favorite is:

A is A. B is B. A can never become B, nor can B ever become A.

See how foolish Buddha was: He thought he could change the nature of the human souls in hell! Talk about wanting to embark on a fool's errand! He believed that he could do something that only supernatural power could accomplish! Folly knows no limit!

But...there is hope for man because God gave mankind his inspired revelation. And wouldn't you know that that revelation teaches precisely what the Law states above -- of course in a different form -- but nonetheless the bible says the same thing. Let's see if the writers of scripture were half as dumb as you would have us believe.

Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither CAN you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
NIV

(The operative word in part B of the verse is "can"! Just sayin'!)

And, of course, your "best friend" had a few things to say on this subject as well. Note carefully how he draws upon the natural world (his own creation!) to draw profound parallels between it and spiritual reality.

Matt 7:16-20
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles ? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
NIV

(Again, because you're so prone to miss even the very obvious, the two operative words here in this passage are "cannot". Just sayin'.) In this one passage, he gives four examples from his natural creation to illustrate spiritual truth. Thornbushes cannot produce grapes. Thistles cannot produce figs. Bad trees cannot produce good fruit. Good trees cannot produce bad fruit. It's against the First Law of Logic, Natural Law and God's Law! Once again we see how Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it) is always consistent with Special Revelation (the inspired Word of God).

And, again, your "best friend" said:

John 15:5-8
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
NIV

A very sobering passage on a couple of levels. Again, it speaks to sinful man's inability to transform himself into something that he isn't! (For example a sinner into a saint. A sinner into a righteous man.) This is what all these passages are teaching! This is why it takes nothing less than God's supernatural power to change the human heart. If the entire world were filled with your beloved Buddhas, not one of them would be able to do that! Together they would not be able. Why? Because man's heart is at enmity with God, in open rebellion against Him and naturally seeks autonomy and freedom FROM Him. Only God can change this! Man has a GOD-SIZED problem -- not merely a Buddha-sized one!

Finally, it appears that you do not abide in your "best friend" because certainly his words don't. His words are "irrelevant". And moreover they were written by a bunch of "fearful, ignorant, superstitious and absolutely stupid men", according to you. So, you are like a dead branch that is destined for the fire! UNLESS...like the Prodigal Son, you confess your sins and run to the Father to ask him for forgiveness on the merits of Jesus' sinless life and atoning work on the Cross on behalf of all that do this very thing.

[Redboard]

I’ve been watching this series, which is 24 30-minute episodes on Wondrium, hosted by Professor Bart D. Ehrman Ph.D, based upon the book/author of the same name. Before I give you my opinion of it, for those of you unfamiliar with the controversial author, Bart D. Ehrman has been a professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill since 1988. But since 2005, he has been making a good living as an author/lecturer of the New Testament and early Christianity. His more than 30 books include three college textbooks and the following six New York Times bestsellers: Misquoting Jesus, Jesus Interrupted, God's Problem, Forged, How Jesus Became God, and The Triumph of Christianity. More than two million copies of his books have been sold, and many have been translated into 27 languages. Ehrman was raised in an Anglican family and was originally a member of the Episcopal Church of the United States. As a teenager, he became a born-again Evangelical. He began studying the Bible, Biblical theology and Biblical languages at the Moody Bible Institute, where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976. He is a 1978 graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois, where he received his bachelor's degree. He received his Ph.D. (in 1985) and Masters of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible. Both baccalaureate and doctorate were conferred magna cum laude. He eventually left evangelicalism and returned to the Episcopal Church, where he remained a liberal Christian for 15 years, but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering.

Whew! Hope that wasn’t too much but I think it’s important for you to understand where Bart’s coming from. I’ll do another post, for my critique of the show.