Blockchain Wagering

[JJMartin]

Blockchain technology & Horse Racing?

Pool application:

Bet with cryptocurrency.
Eliminate takeout and pool manipulation. Possibly control or limit whale action?

Create a type of stock/shares (tokens) for individual horses, trainers etc.

What else?

It seems there is something already in the works for wagering in general. There is a site called wagerr.com (I have no affiliation) that is attempting to apply blockchain to betting. This may lead to something promising for bettors.

Any thoughts?

[BrentT]

Would be nice.
I think everything is so far away with blockchain right now.
But I’m a fan of it all, been invested in cryptos for a couple years

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by BrentT

Would be nice.
I think everything is so far away with blockchain right now.
But I’m a fan of it all, been invested in cryptos for a couple years

I think it is only a matter of time.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Blockchain is potentially a useful aspect of the current crypto-mania, but it's not going to save the universe from destruction, IMHO.

Currently, it's implementation requires long periods of lag for transactions to be discovered, confirmed, and committed. Bitcoin takes over an hour. See this chart for averages, often exceeding 500 minutes. Not sure how that's gonna translate to something useful in a sport where people like to bet up until the gate opens.

https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time

But perhaps the lag isn't an obstacle?

Your other points:

1. Bet with cryptocurrency.

Sure, why not. We're all betting in fiat currencies anyway, which is getting to be less and less a measure of wealth. Why not bet in gold, oil or ammo? In other words, betting in cryptos doesn't provide any advantage. In fact, with blockchain your bets would be tracked and could be traced back to you. Some would consider that a big negative.

2. Eliminate takeout.

Okay. With peer-to-peer betting, the potential is there. But you become a parasite on the host of bettors that do pay takeout, and the death spiral of the sport is already apparent, considering the trends, higher takeouts, unfriendly taxing, rebates, economic pressures, etc. I would suggest if online bettors did this in large numbers, the sport would decline further. A successful parasite knows not to kill the host.

3. Pool manipulation

If lag can be overcome, you'd be on to something here, with transactions tracked via blockchain, and traceable. Patterns of abuse would, in theory, be trivial to discover. However, current technology with data analytics and a good ol' database can do the same thing, and how much of the market is going to commit to blockchain? Not those cash bettors. Blockchain does bring to the table some added security, with shared confirmation (and timestamps) across the betting pool. In theory, the system would not be prone to post-race hacking. In theory.

4. Control or limit whales

This seems to imply an assumption that whales are bad. Ask the track operators if they'd like to limit their whales. While blockchain (and other technologies) can identify whales, the debate would over whether their action is illegal or gives them an unfair advantage.

5. Tokens for horses, trainers

This is kind of an interesting angle, but would still require an external authority to validate results. If using a crypto or blockchain makes it easier to buy shares in a horse, that could help the industry - 'cause we sure could use more owners. Have to ponder this a bit more.

6. Wagerr.com ( https://www.wagerr.com/ )

Did you scroll down to look at their personnel? I know it's consider prejudiced and bad form to jump to conclusions based on appearances, but the group of cronies on that site are not the kind of people I'd trust any serious money with. Any money at all, actually.

They look exactly like the kind of people trying to capitalize on the bitcoin/crypto/blockchain frenzy. Though, of course, they could actually be a fine group of fellas.

There are probably many applications of blockchain that have yet to be dreamed up, and perhaps someday it'll be a much bigger part of our lives. And then again, considering the power consumption and rising costs associated with maintaining the peer-to-peer network the longer it exists, the technology may not pan out, and join the tulip bulb bubble as another get-rich-quick scheme gone awry. Who knows?

[gm10]

Not disagreeing with the principle in general..... However.... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2353778.0

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

Blockchain is potentially a useful aspect of the current crypto-mania, but it's not going to save the universe from destruction, IMHO.

Currently, it's implementation requires long periods of lag for transactions to be discovered, confirmed, and committed. Bitcoin takes over an hour. See this chart for averages, often exceeding 500 minutes. Not sure how that's gonna translate to something useful in a sport where people like to bet up until the gate opens.

https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time

But perhaps the lag isn't an obstacle?

Your other points:

1. Bet with cryptocurrency.

Sure, why not. We're all betting in fiat currencies anyway, which is getting to be less and less a measure of wealth. Why not bet in gold, oil or ammo? In other words, betting in cryptos doesn't provide any advantage. In fact, with blockchain your bets would be tracked and could be traced back to you. Some would consider that a big negative.

2. Eliminate takeout.

Okay. With peer-to-peer betting, the potential is there. But you become a parasite on the host of bettors that do pay takeout, and the death spiral of the sport is already apparent, considering the trends, higher takeouts, unfriendly taxing, rebates, economic pressures, etc. I would suggest if online bettors did this in large numbers, the sport would decline further. A successful parasite knows not to kill the host.

3. Pool manipulation

If lag can be overcome, you'd be on to something here, with transactions tracked via blockchain, and traceable. Patterns of abuse would, in theory, be trivial to discover. However, current technology with data analytics and a good ol' database can do the same thing, and how much of the market is going to commit to blockchain? Not those cash bettors. Blockchain does bring to the table some added security, with shared confirmation (and timestamps) across the betting pool. In theory, the system would not be prone to post-race hacking. In theory.

4. Control or limit whales

This seems to imply an assumption that whales are bad. Ask the track operators if they'd like to limit their whales. While blockchain (and other technologies) can identify whales, the debate would over whether their action is illegal or gives them an unfair advantage.

5. Tokens for horses, trainers

This is kind of an interesting angle, but would still require an external authority to validate results. If using a crypto or blockchain makes it easier to buy shares in a horse, that could help the industry - 'cause we sure could use more owners. Have to ponder this a bit more.

6. Wagerr.com ( https://www.wagerr.com/ )

Did you scroll down to look at their personnel? I know it's consider prejudiced and bad form to jump to conclusions based on appearances, but the group of cronies on that site are not the kind of people I'd trust any serious money with. Any money at all, actually.

They look exactly like the kind of people trying to capitalize on the bitcoin/crypto/blockchain frenzy. Though, of course, they could actually be a fine group of fellas.

There are probably many applications of blockchain that have yet to be dreamed up, and perhaps someday it'll be a much bigger part of our lives. And then again, considering the power consumption and rising costs associated with maintaining the peer-to-peer network the longer it exists, the technology may not pan out, and join the tulip bulb bubble as another get-rich-quick scheme gone awry. Who knows?

You are right that Bitcoin lags but there are some others that are fast. Bitcoin is old and cannot be changed, it will implode due to high fees and slow speeds. But as I said there are other coins that are much better. There are about 1400 other coins, most are garbage, but the ones that are good have something to back them up.

Have a look at the white paper on their site, it was not written by morons. They make a lot of great points. That should change your impression.
Thanks for your comment.

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by gm10

Not disagreeing with the principle in general..... However.... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2353778.0

I don't know that much about them either but it is the principle as you say.

[lamboguy]

i like the theory, but like all the other crypto's, this has no tangible backing except for maybe a winning bet.
the precious metals markets are even more manipulated than the mutuel pools in racing. applying this technology to mining stocks may have some real juice in them because they have the ultimate backing, the metal itself. if i were a mining company today, i would stop selling the physical gold and develop a crypto currency that is backed by the gold itself. this would put a rocket engine underneath the price of gold and make it impossible to manipulate. the exact same principle you are using to bet with ctypto.'

i have to admit you came up with an ingenious idea that merits some serious consideration. it is the type of idea that is revolutionary and can be applied to many other things in this world.

to sum this up, there is a place for this alternative currencies. and it takes solid thinking minds like yourself to put the theory into reality. keep coming with those types of idea's, i love it.

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

i like the theory, but like all the other crypto's, this has no tangible backing except for maybe a winning bet.
the precious metals markets are even more manipulated than the mutuel pools in racing. applying this technology to mining stocks may have some real juice in them because they have the ultimate backing, the metal itself. if i were a mining company today, i would stop selling the physical gold and develop a crypto currency that is backed by the gold itself. this would put a rocket engine underneath the price of gold and make it impossible to manipulate. the exact same principle you are using to bet with ctypto.'

i have to admit you came up with an ingenious idea that merits some serious consideration. it is the type of idea that is revolutionary and can be applied to many other things in this world.

to sum this up, there is a place for this alternative currencies. and it takes solid thinking minds like yourself to put the theory into reality. keep coming with those types of idea's, i love it.

Thanks, we have the Bitcoin founder to thank for the Blockchain technology (although nobody really knows who he is). There is no question that this tech is being explored for applications outside of alternative currencies.
I suppose I could have titled this thread "Decentralized Wagering" as that is the main concept behind Blockchain and what the fundamental function is that Blockchain provides.
Cryptocurrency is not a joke, a fad or a gimmick. It is a real form of payment that is being taken seriously for it's potential in global commerce. As soon as a mega company like Amazon or Walmart decide to use it for purchases, which ever coin they adopt will skyrocket in value.
KFC in Canada recently did a limited time promotion where they accepted Bitcoin for a bucket of chicken. Microsoft, Subway and Expedia accept BTC as payment for some of their products. There are many others.
Current Crypto total market cap is $619 Billion. Not a small figure.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by JJMartin

You are right that Bitcoin lags but there are some others that are fast. Bitcoin is old and cannot be changed, it will implode due to high fees and slow speeds. But as I said there are other coins that are much better. There are about 1400 other coins, most are garbage, but the ones that are good have something to back them up.

Have a look at the white paper on their site, it was not written by morons. They make a lot of great points. That should change your impression.
Thanks for your comment.

Not sure what whitepaper you mean. Link? You give the impression you're invested in this technology. There may very well be some practical applications, but right now there's plenty of mania surrounding "cryptos" and blockchain, though the plunge of bitcoin from $19K to $9K in the last six weeks is putting a damper on some that.

If "most" of 1400 crypto coins are garbage, how to pick the winners? By "ones that are good have something to back them up", do you mean they have a tangible asset behind them (ie, gold)?

Cryptos have some hills to climb. The government can step in, decide it's not legal tender, and you're done. Or they can step in, and do what they did with gold back in FDR's time. Decentralized blockchain is kinda cool in theory, but in many ways it's just another way to be tracked - down to the nth degree. It requires servers, electricity and connectivity - and with failing infrastructure and brown outs and black outs looking more frequent in the future, that's hardly a given.

In other words, we may be very well living in "peak reliability/availability" with the Internet today, and it goes downhill from here. If cryptos could facilitate the black markets or barter systems, I would be more impressed. I believe a future of people trying to be off the grid of the financial system is ripe for growth.

Blockchain or a useful crypto coin may be more practical than some of Elon Musk's crazy schemes (which fold without government funding), but there's plenty of reasons to be skeptical.

Just yesterday I read about how some web sites are now apparently using the CPU cycles on your PC for mining bitcoins while viewing their pages - causing your system to run slower. If true, it's not helping the reputation of the sector.

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

Not sure what whitepaper you mean. Link? You give the impression you're invested in this technology. There may very well be some practical applications, but right now there's plenty of mania surrounding "cryptos" and blockchain, though the plunge of bitcoin from $19K to $9K in the last six weeks is putting a damper on some that.

If "most" of 1400 crypto coins are garbage, how to pick the winners? By "ones that are good have something to back them up", do you mean they have a tangible asset behind them (ie, gold)?

Cryptos have some hills to climb. The government can step in, decide it's not legal tender, and you're done. Or they can step in, and do what they did with gold back in FDR's time. Decentralized blockchain is kinda cool in theory, but in many ways it's just another way to be tracked - down to the nth degree. It requires servers, electricity and connectivity - and with failing infrastructure and brown outs and black outs looking more frequent in the future, that's hardly a given.

In other words, we may be very well living in "peak reliability/availability" with the Internet today, and it goes downhill from here. If cryptos could facilitate the black markets or barter systems, I would be more impressed. I believe a future of people trying to be off the grid of the financial system is ripe for growth.

Blockchain or a useful crypto coin may be more practical than some of Elon Musk's crazy schemes (which fold without government funding), but there's plenty of reasons to be skeptical.

Just yesterday I read about how some web sites are now apparently using the CPU cycles on your PC for mining bitcoins while viewing their pages - causing your system to run slower. If true, it's not helping the reputation of the sector.

There is a lot going on in the Crypto industry no doubt. But in regards to the main intetntion of this thread, I believe a blockchain application could possible improve some things for watering specifically in horse racing. There's a couple other sites besides "Wagerr" that I have found with a google search - Augur and Herocoin. I think the main point is that the blockchain platform is an inevitability with decentralization being the foundation for fairness and transparency in wagering.

Crytocurrency is just an example of a blockchain application. Bitcoin started it all but Bitcoin or any other coin is not blockchain per se. Most of the coins on the market are more of a stock than an alternate payment method. But that is a topic for another area.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by JJMartin

There is a lot going on in the Crypto industry no doubt. But in regards to the main intetntion of this thread, I believe a blockchain application could possible improve some things for watering specifically in horse racing. There's a couple other sites besides "Wagerr" that I have found with a google search - Augur and Herocoin. I think the main point is that the blockchain platform is an inevitability with decentralization being the foundation for fairness and transparency in wagering.

Crytocurrency is just an example of a blockchain application. Bitcoin started it all but Bitcoin or any other coin is not blockchain per se. Most of the coins on the market are more of a stock than an alternate payment method. But that is a topic for another area.

The Augur site has a broken github link on its main page. My impression is that it's a gathering place for low talent developers looking to catch a ride on the next hot technology. IMHO.

The Herocoin site has a little more solid footing, but still doesn't pass my personal sniff test. The whitepaper link displays a 34 page high-level advertisement. Their revenue growth projections look shady, centered around the growth of esports (video gaming) as their main target. How does this translate to horse racing, which already has its own "semi-secure" pools which skim takeout to support the sport? In other words, the problems that blockchain can help with are not really problems, at least to the providers.

I do not share your view that blockchain is inevitable simply because it's too early to tell. Last year, blockchain tech was a $242M business, projected to grow to $7.7B by 2022, per this article in Fortune:

http://fortune.com/2017/12/26/blockc...companies-ibm/

The growth is phrased in rather vague terms. Are we, the users and investors, simply to believe the projections with nothing concrete behind it?

As a computer consultant and former IBMer (and happily so), my expertise is not in transactional security, but my storage experience has allowed me to know a thing or two about replication, encryption and D/R. Blockchain has much of the same characteristics as "the cloud", which in fact has fallen well short of its promises, with higher than expected costs and data security concerns. In short, cloud started out as a fancy new term for existing technology, in a vain attempt (at least at IBM) to spur meteoric growth by customers jumping to the "new", though really the same old, technology. Now cloud is becoming more mature, and companies are understanding where it fits for them, but it's run head smack into the bean counter's demands to cut costs.

I certainly understand that the cryptos have soiled the image of blockchain, but the mania spilled over, and there's lots of shady operators out there and billions will be lost on dead ends. I expect horse racing, with its history of slow changes and adoption, to be near the end of the line when it comes to adopting blockchain technology.

Dr. Doom, aka Nouriel Roubini, is even more pessimistic, claiming the technology has been around for 10 years and only has crypto coins to show for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=mEv9HJH8FW4

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by JJMartin

Blockchain technology & Horse Racing?

Pool application:

Bet with cryptocurrency.
Eliminate takeout and pool manipulation......

Any thoughts?

Why would takeout be eliminated? Do you think that the tracks would put on the show for free?

[JJMartin]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Why would takeout be eliminated? Do you think that the tracks would put on the show for free?

I meant for a platform like Betfair.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Why would takeout be eliminated? Do you think that the tracks would put on the show for free?

for many years bookmakers would book bets from most of the tracks and never paid anything to the tracks.
also back in the 1970's i used to see bookmakers lay off some of their action right at the track.