Illinois - save the pensions!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Tom

By doing it.
By making my own choices.
Looking at what choice I did make, had I been able to add the SS money every paycheck, I would be enjoying a lobster-scrambled egg and champagne breakfast right now instead of this PopTart.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When you were a young man how would the government determine that you were worthy of being excused from SS?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Tom

By doing it.
By making my own choices.
Looking at what choice I did make, had I been able to add the SS money every paycheck, I would be enjoying a lobster-scrambled egg and champagne breakfast right now instead of this PopTart.

Do you comprehend the idea of making your own choices, of winning or losing on your own merit?

To what end?
Those dependent on you vote for you.
Look the Black community and the democrats - the war on poverty, which was really a war on poor people.

Most people can't be trusted to invest the entirety of their own money properly. If there was no SS in place, then the majority of the citizens would mishandle the SS money instead of saving or investing it...and then they would burden the government for their survival come retirement time. At least now, with SS...there is the hope that we'll have a cup of soup and a bagel waiting for us when we really need it...in case our "other investments" don't pan out.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

From thefreedictionary.com:

ploy (plɔɪ)
n
1. a manoeuvre or tactic in a game, conversation, etc; stratagem; gambit
2. any business, job, hobby, etc, with which one is occupied: angling is his latest ploy.
3. chiefly Brit a frolic, escapade, or practical joke


How stupid does one have to to be to believe that Social Security benefits one receives in old age is not really a benefit at all but is some kind of ploy that needs to be marketed?

Everybody knows somebody who relies on their SS checks to get by. Period.

I'm not sure what your point is, but since mine wasn't that clear, I guess I can't complain. Of course it's a benefit, but why is the program so often <intentionally> misdescribed?

I started receiving my "benefits" statement for SS well before I turned 50. This statement showed that nice summary of benefits I'd already "earned" and my estimated monthly payment (waiting until eligible for full benefits of course).

I thought that rather strange that SS would waste money on a marketing strategy for someone two decades away from collecting benefits....

As a side note, I have not received those annual SS statements now for several years.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Actor

That's what SCOTUS called it in 1963.

True. But why does .GOV and the media rarely mention it that context, and describe it more as that critical safety net that must be maintained (or else)? Why does the SS administration track eligibility, payments, and deposits on an individual basis so closely, versus an experience more like when you go down to the state unemployment office?

It may be a tax, but that's not how it's sold to the public. I've spoken to many seniors and others who proclaim, loudly and in no uncertain terms, that the money in their SSN "account" is their money, and not Uncle Sugar's. Hmmm.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by forced89

The secret is to just live long enough. At one time I thought paying into SS was a waste but after having collected over $350,000 in benefits I look at it a little differently.

Well, I'm not sure that's much of a secret, but congratulations for having good health and a long life to be able to bring home that much dough. Not sure I'd bring that up when hanging with the baristas on their smoke break down at the local Starbucks, though.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Actor

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When you were a young man how would the government determine that you were worthy of being excused from SS?

It is is NEVER the government's job to determine anything about me, or what I choose to do.

You are thinking NAZIS, not America.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Actor

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. When you were a young man how would the government determine that you were worthy of being excused from SS?

That's a pretty loaded statement. Another way to look at SS, is to ask what gives government the right to "save" for my old age, with a program that's not optional nor directly tied to any pool of funds that I actually contributed?

I've paid well over six figures into Social Security, some years paying the "double rate" as an independent contractor, and it's quite likely I will receive nothing, even though I'm only 10 years or so from getting in line.

I'm not totally opposed to some type of savings program, but between SS and most retirement mechanisms, the typical worker is getting fleeced. Why not have a real, honest "account", for deposits only, earning interest at the going rate, and resulting in an asset that can be passed on to survivors in the event you die?

Well, because then the .GOV might actually be concerned about you and your family.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by LemonSoupKid

Did you lift that from me? Because I have made the same year prediction, plus or minus a little time.

Federal bailouts may occur, but they will be like 15% of what the promise (agreement) supposedly was. This has been done already in TX during a few defaults ...

I subsequently wonder what the best devices are to have your money in, in order to prepare. I'm already thinking about it.

I did not lift that from you, at least not intentionally. Federal bailouts, for anything other than Federal programs, IMHO, are pretty iffy at this point going forward, even at a fraction of what the pension "guaranteed" amounts. The exception might be allowing someone who was exempted from paying "into" SS become eligible, but further dilution of that fine (/sarcasm) program is not going to help.

As for investment devices, you're on your own there. The printing game has gone on much longer than I thought possible, and we really are now in a place, from the perspective of the economic system, where we have never been before. A deflationary collapse becomes a game of losing the least amount, while hyperinflation becomes another sort of death spiral - with real capital being shunned, and a live for the day attitude not boding well for the future.

Many talk up owning physical gold or silver, while others believe owning property with good soil and water is the way to go. Personally, I think being at one extreme or the other in the financial spectrum is the way to go, while maintaining good health and a couple of useful skills as a nice compliment.

Again, the path in our future contains many predicaments, and not problems that have a solution, and some serious changes are coming down the pike.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Most people can't be trusted to invest the entirety of their own money properly. If there was no SS in place, then the majority of the citizens would mishandle the SS money instead of saving or investing it...and then they would burden the government for their survival come retirement time. At least now, with SS...there is the hope that we'll have a cup of soup and a bagel waiting for us when we really need it...in case our "other investments" don't pan out.

You touch on a number of complexities of the issues at hand. Since the government decided to step in and help poor, old people with SS, the private safety nets of fraternal organizations and local charities have declined. Because of numerous reasons and other government programs, the family structure has been under stress from its traditional role of providing for the elders. And of course because the government got involved in education, Americans are very much ignorant about finance and often basic math. Worst of all, Americans seem to be ignorant of history, and many are now supporting even more of (government) the root cause to many ills today.

You are probably right that most people would not be able to manage their finances properly for retirement, but to say they couldn't be "trusted" is open for debate. And it brings up the question about the other aspect of trust. Could we trust the government with our money, or to maintain a stable and inflation free financial system to protect our wealth? Ummm, no.

All signs point to this not ending well. Or at least not as well as what we were thinking.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Most people can't be trusted to invest the entirety of their own money properly. If there was no SS in place, then the majority of the citizens would mishandle the SS money instead of saving or investing it...and then they would burden the government for their survival come retirement time. At least now, with SS...there is the hope that we'll have a cup of soup and a bagel waiting for us when we really need it...in case our "other investments" don't pan out.

It's not that they can't be trusted. It's that (1)after paying for food, rent, heat, etc. there's nothing left over to invest and (2)they don't know how to invest. I went through high school, college and graduate school and was taught zip about investing. Everything I learned about investing I learned on my own. I read the right books and a few of the wrong ones. The closest I ever came to learning anything about investing was in high school where I was taught that investing is risky, don't do it.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Tom

It is is NEVER the government's job to determine anything about me, or what I choose to do.

The Preamble to the Constitution contains the phrase "promote the general welfare." It requires a census every ten years. It also gives the government the power to tax which means you have to file a tax return and tell them how much you make. And when the shit hits the fan you, or your sons, will find yourself drafted and told to fight.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

True. But why does .GOV and the media rarely mention it that context, and describe it more as that critical safety net that must be maintained (or else)? Why does the SS administration track eligibility, payments, and deposits on an individual basis so closely, versus an experience more like when you go down to the state unemployment office?

It may be a tax, but that's not how it's sold to the public. I've spoken to many seniors and others who proclaim, loudly and in no uncertain terms, that the money in their SSN "account" is their money, and not Uncle Sugar's. Hmmm.

It's probably more politically expedient to not tell the electorate how the system actually works. It would not surprise me to learn that your average congressman/senator does not know.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

It's not that they can't be trusted. It's that (1)after paying for food, rent, heat, etc. there's nothing left over to invest and (2)they don't know how to invest. I went through high school, college and graduate school and was taught zip about investing. Everything I learned about investing I learned on my own. I read the right books and a few of the wrong ones. The closest I ever came to learning anything about investing was in high school where I was taught that investing is risky, don't do it.

None of us here learned how to bet the horses in school either...but most of us managed to pick up that "knowledge" on our own, without much complaining. The truth is that people are always able to learn whatever they feel they need to...assuming that they consider this to be an important matter to them.

Yes, there isn't much money left for the majority of us after we pay the bills...but we still can afford to put aside our SS deductions, because the money is taken from us before we can even see it. If the money wasn't deducted from our paychecks and we were asked to make our own SS contributions at the end of every year...how many of us would be able to maintain a funded SS account for our latter years? If our income taxes weren't deducted from our regular paychecks...how many of us would be able to afford Uncle Sam's tax bill on April the 15th? There would be a REVOLUTION every April the 15th.

When we are young, we are not afraid of the future...because we have a very optimistic outlook about our life's journey. Then the obligations get a hold of us...and the "investing stage" gets pushed further and further back. If we only had the brain that we do now when we were 25 years old, then we'd all be rich...and we wouldn't need the government to assist us in our latter years. Alas...youth and brains don't come hand-in-hand.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

You touch on a number of complexities of the issues at hand. Since the government decided to step in and help poor, old people with SS, the private safety nets of fraternal organizations and local charities have declined. Because of numerous reasons and other government programs, the family structure has been under stress from its traditional role of providing for the elders. And of course because the government got involved in education, Americans are very much ignorant about finance and often basic math. Worst of all, Americans seem to be ignorant of history, and many are now supporting even more of (government) the root cause to many ills today.

You are probably right that most people would not be able to manage their finances properly for retirement, but to say they couldn't be "trusted" is open for debate. And it brings up the question about the other aspect of trust. Could we trust the government with our money, or to maintain a stable and inflation free financial system to protect our wealth? Ummm, no.

All signs point to this not ending well. Or at least not as well as what we were thinking.

The government doesn't "ask" us to trust them. They put a gun to our heads...and take from us whatever they want. Does the state ask us if we can afford to pay the property tax increase that comes uninvited to our door?

The government isn't taking the SS money from the working person of today because they care about this person's financial standing at retirement age. The money that we pay to SS today is used to feed today's retirees...on the assumption that when WE are ready to retire, there will he hordes of working people out there willing to pay money so WE could have a bite to eat and a place to stay. The classic Ponzi scheme, and everybody knows it...but we are all powerless to stop it.

"The Land of the Free..."

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Actor

The Preamble to the Constitution contains the phrase "promote the general welfare." It requires a census every ten years. It also gives the government the power to tax which means you have to file a tax return and tell them how much you make. And when the shit hits the fan you, or your sons, will find yourself drafted and told to fight.

Now you are changing the subject.