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Old 03-21-2019, 07:31 PM   #31
taxicab
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This is some brutal drugging of horses going on.
Kentucky will keep the results quiet,that's what they do.
California is now a horse of a different color..........the outside world has gotten ahold of everything...........big trouble a brewing.
I keep thinking back to that Drayden Van Dyke tweet from last week........he was kind of hinting at what was going on........and the next time a fanboy tries to tell you drugging of race horses is down,or isn't a problem.......laugh in their face.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:39 PM   #32
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BTW:
Great reads from drib & Jeff P in this thread.........high quality stuff.
And thanks for the folks who put up the links in the thread.......solid reads.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:25 PM   #33
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Something tells me all this will go the way of the Assmussen tales
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:22 PM   #34
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Something tells me all this will go the way of the Assmussen tales
When I started this thread I used "naive" in trying not to exaggerate the bisphosphonate factor in the SA deaths; however, in just two days, I have to reconsider. The Paulick article, in particular, is devastating:
"In our practice, we have seen an almost ten-fold increase in catastrophic breakdowns and large long bone stress fractures (humeral/femoral/physeal) in our 2-year-old in training horses (both sales and race-prepping clients).... "It can take a lame horse and make them sound the very next day."
I sympathize with your cynicism; heck, racing's "bible", the Daily Racing Form" is crickets on the subject, and the alarming rise in Kentucky deaths (CD has the worst record) was not well publicized (no surprise given racing's importance in that state), but now there a report about possible castastrophe at Oaklawn, and, sadly, the death toll will keep rising. Remember that the coming 2 yr old class has probably been most exposed to bisphosphonates, and the poison has been seeded. The next two years in racing may get very ugly.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:07 PM   #35
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I keep thinking back to that Drayden Van Dyke tweet from last week........he was kind of hinting at what was going on....

What did Van Dyke tweet out? Guessing it was deleted quickly cause I looked for it a few days ago & couldn't find anything controversial on his feed.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:26 AM   #36
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What did Van Dyke tweet out? Guessing it was deleted quickly cause I looked for it a few days ago & couldn't find anything controversial on his feed.
It was the day last week the shi* really hit the fan at Santa Anita.
The racing surface was taking the brunt of the heat.
DVD comes out of nowhere and says the track is fine........it's not the problem......Van Dyke kind of pointed folks in the direction the arrow is pointing now.
I imagine quite a few horsemen weren't happy with his tweet.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:31 AM   #37
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Something tells me all this will go the way of the Assmussen tales
Impossible.

It can't just go away. The breakdowns will continue. There's nowhere to hide.

This is SERIOUS! It's not like the P6 scandal, where they catch the guys and then let the river run for awhile, and suddenly, everybody has forgotten about it. The breakdowns will continue, and each generation of horses, until this drug is absolutely and positively taken out of action, will continue breaking down.

You could see racing being suspended in a state like California for a couple years as a solution to ridding the sport of the drug. All horses in training, at this time, potentially could have been exposed and treated with this drug. A strong case could be made for making all horses fold prior to 2019 ineligible to race in order to protect them from possible injury.

We have always known that horse racing would ultimately succumb due to self inflicted damage. They've potentially ACTUALLY done it in California. The greed so overcame the industry that any horse in training can't be trusted to be sound.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:52 AM   #38
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Impossible.

It can't just go away. The breakdowns will continue. There's nowhere to hide.

This is SERIOUS! It's not like the P6 scandal, where they catch the guys and then let the river run for awhile, and suddenly, everybody has forgotten about it. The breakdowns will continue, and each generation of horses, until this drug is absolutely and positively taken out of action, will continue breaking down.

You could see racing being suspended in a state like California for a couple years as a solution to ridding the sport of the drug. All horses in training, at this time, potentially could have been exposed and treated with this drug. A strong case could be made for making all horses fold prior to 2019 ineligible to race in order to protect them from possible injury.

We have always known that horse racing would ultimately succumb due to self inflicted damage. They've potentially ACTUALLY done it in California. The greed so overcame the industry that any horse in training can't be trusted to be sound.
is there any info out there on how long the effects of this drug last? It may be something that eliminates itself in 60 days after not taking it. Or people would just take it for a short time then stop since it has to be rather spendy. So I would think it's detriment would be cured in a short period of time. But there isn't any real info out there on it I would suspect. Sounds like they need to bring some experts on the stuff forward and have an open public discussion on this. If you really think about it, the intentions of this were probably good in the beginning. Help a horse heal and build stronger bone. I would imagine the pitfalls of it weren't known then either. But the results were either being ignored or not being put fourth of maybe what was causing it wasn't understood for quite awhile. And it is possible this has nothing to do with these breakdowns either. Lots of unknowns yet. Even if this has nothing to do with it, it's good it's being brought to the surface now anyway.


One hunch I have is it's very expensive and not being used at cheap tracks or on cheaper horses. So maybe that will isolate it's use.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:31 AM   #39
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Medical doctors have been using bisphosphonates for about 25 years. The equine versions (Tildren and Osphos) were introduced in the USA about 4 years ago; of course, they were used overseas well before, and it is certainly possible that some trainers/vets had earlier access. Tildren is administered with a 90 minute IV infusion; Osphos is given with one intramuscular shot (should be split into 3 locations). One dose is all that is required for several mos. effectiveness (who knows if some use the drug more frequently?). The drugs clear quickly from blood and urine, thus a sales baby treated 3-4 weeks prior to auction will be "clean" (same for an in training horse treated days before a race). The drugs rapidly adhere to bone, and may stay there for years (one report found them 10 years later in test rat bones). There are 2 separate pharmacologic effects: bone metabolism (long term), and pain relief (short term). The drugs have been described as expensive, but I have found the USA retail price to be around $250. Here are the package inserts:
http://www.osphos.com/includes/pdf/D...age-Insert.pdf
https://www.tildren.us/product
The picture seems clear; just one dose results in drug presence for many months/years.
Ky and Calif have done necropsies on the dead horses. After reviewing this material, I am further perplexed why there is such a long delay in providing results of bone chip assays for bisphosphonates. Every piece of drug information discusses finding the drug in bone. Here is an article from Canada in 2011 measuring the drug in bone taken from live horses: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062923/
Come on guys, finding the drug in bone chips is not difficult, yet there are no announced results! The sense of panic among some leading industry figures in recent days heightens my suspicions.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:25 AM   #40
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“It’s not clear that we’ve got a terribly reliable method for detecting it in the bone,” said Scollay, who added that acquiring bone samples from live horses is clearly not an option. Most of the research thus far has been from “fracture fragments” through injured horses, said Scollay. “And we have not detected bisphosphonates. But again, are we looking in the right place? There’s a lot we don’t know yet.”

This is a quote from Ky Equine Medical Director Dr. Mary Scolla, and I find it stretches credibilty. In the 2011 Canadian article I linked in the previous post there is this report:

Concentrations of tiludronate in the bone were measured by high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) with ultraviolet (UV) detection at 264 nm, according to the method validated by CEVA Santé Animale (unpublished data, 2008). Briefly, the mobile phase was composed of a mix of 1) ammonium acetate (80 g), EDTA (0.8 g), and formic acid (8 mL) in a 2-L solution in ultrapure water (97%); and 2) acetonitrile (7%); the method was isocratic and the flow rate was 1 mL/min. Retention time for tiludronate was 6.7 min. The solution of bone filtrate was prepared following decalcification by a chlorhydric acid solution (HCl 37% in the same volume of ultrapure water; 1 g of bone in 10 mL of acidic solution for 1 night at 70°C before filtration). This step was followed by a liquid-solid extraction of calcium tiludronic acid complex in basic medium, before redissolution and injection on the HPLC system. Concentrations were expressed in μg/kg of fresh sample. The limit of quantification of the method was 500 μg/kg.

I apologize for this technical jargon, but, maybe, someone should ask Scollay and the California authorities why they are having such problems looking for bisphosphonates in bone.
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:53 AM   #41
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This is why the Barr-Tonko bill should be supported in my opinion.

It creates a new organization - HADA (Horseracing Anti Doping Agency) similar to USADA. It allows for various constituents to be on the board but HADA/USADA will be the test adminstrators just as they are for many sports where they've done a great job (again IMO) using out of competition testing.

Just google USADA and MMA or UFC and you'll see the work they've done effectively weeding out cheaters, as well as the recent story about the Bridge player. It took USADA a while to catch Lance Armstrong but in the end they caught him, and that's the hope for a clean sport.

For anyone concerned about the government running the show, HADA/USADA is NOT the Federal Government.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:59 PM   #42
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$250 is nothing in this industry
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Old 03-23-2019, 01:27 PM   #43
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It creates a new organization - HADA (Horseracing Anti Doping Agency) t.

Another organization?. No f'n way. Please god no.

I'm going into make pretend mode, and try to whistle by the problem of race horse care, and after care.

How many times have we heard breeders/owners say "Most foals never make it to the race track?" In thinking deeper about the care and whereabouts of those animals, I realized that I don't want to think about it.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:02 PM   #44
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is there any info out there on how long the effects of this drug last? It may be something that eliminates itself in 60 days after not taking it. Or people would just take it for a short time then stop since it has to be rather spendy. So I would think it's detriment would be cured in a short period of time. But there isn't any real info out there on it I would suspect. Sounds like they need to bring some experts on the stuff forward and have an open public discussion on this. If you really think about it, the intentions of this were probably good in the beginning. Help a horse heal and build stronger bone. I would imagine the pitfalls of it weren't known then either. But the results were either being ignored or not being put fourth of maybe what was causing it wasn't understood for quite awhile. And it is possible this has nothing to do with these breakdowns either. Lots of unknowns yet. Even if this has nothing to do with it, it's good it's being brought to the surface now anyway.


One hunch I have is it's very expensive and not being used at cheap tracks or on cheaper horses. So maybe that will isolate it's use.

The dangers of the drug were always obvious. What it did immediately was make a horse not feel bone pain because it stopped the remodeling that created the bone pain. There's no horseman out there who doesn't hear that one sentence and know how dangerous that makes this drug. No vet or trainer has any excuse at all for ever using this drug with a horse in training.

There are cases of horses who haven't started remodeling correctly fourteen months after administration.

I've been telling people about this drug and how damning it is since I learned of it early last year. As usual, racing waits until a crisis hits to react.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:05 PM   #45
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Another organization?. No f'n way. Please god no.

I'm going into make pretend mode, and try to whistle by the problem of race horse care, and after care.

How many times have we heard breeders/owners say "Most foals never make it to the race track?" In thinking deeper about the care and whereabouts of those animals, I realized that I don't want to think about it.
Who says that? Most do make it to the racetrack.
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