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Old 03-09-2019, 02:21 AM   #31
sharkie187
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I have noticed that the sport has been declining for a few years now. When I returned from overseas and went to SA on a brght sunny Saturday, I saw the grandstands 1/4 filled what it use to be in the late 80s and early 90s.

From a betting standpoint...Here’s what I saw in the UK that made horse/dog racing popular.

-The betting focus is only win bets on a single race or parlays.
America has way too many wagering options: exacta, quinella, tri, super, high 5, double, pick3-6, roulette...some of these all on one race! The UK does offer exactas/tri or the bookies version “forecast/tricast” but thats not the main focus. Its simply win bets. And you either place your bet through the tote (same as the US) or take the bookie’s fixed odds which can be HIGHER than the tote.

-No limit on wagering.
Here’s where its vastly different. In the US, some states offer a minimum $1 WPS bet but the majority is $2. The UK tote is the same with a minimum £1 Win or Place bet. But the bookies...do not have a MINIMUM limit! Now, supposedly the rule is 50p as the minimum, but I’ve been to a few betting shops where guys were playing 10p, 15p, 25p win bets! And the public knows this and take full advantage of it! Can you imagine a fan going to a casino in Las Vegas trying to bet 50 cents to win on a horse at Gulfstream? They’d be laugh out of the casino.

-Paying out to more than 1st/2nd/3rd
For big races and big meets, there are advertisements everywhere on which bookie to go to to bet the big race! They got full page ads on newspapers, tv commericals, or web ads of the bookie’s name, name/time
Of the race, and entries and their odds. Then you see the subnote... each way (win or place)paying out to 5,6,or 7 places! Of course this big race has a minimum of 20 entries usually (Grand National, Queen’s Plate, Gold Cup, etc) but still to pay out to the 7th place finisher!!! If that doesn’t bring in crowds, I dont know what does...and its still 20p (or whatever).

-What do you want to bet on?
UK bookies usually take whatever bet the patrons give them. I can’t tell you how many times I made a parlay bet using different tracks at once! And you can cross sport the parlay too! I remember parlaying a horse at Newcastle with Manchester United beating Sunderland at 50p! The UK bookies have figured out to let the fans bet how they want to bet at whatever price.
Here in the US, the guys running the show tell us what we CAN bet on and there’s no crossing sports betting. Actually, until last year, I didn’t see parlays offered at the track anymore!
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:35 AM   #32
chadk66
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Since I quit training in 1991 horse racing has declined considerably. And I think it has a ways to go yet before bottoming out. I think you'll see some more tracks close down.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:46 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
We are almost all on online players now.

I just came back from a week in SoCal. Really wanted to get out to the track. Even stayed in Pasadena so we'd be close. But between bad weather, all the added costs, and the fact that it just isn't a very good deal, I decided to go to the zoo instead.

But the big problem is (as someone else mentioned) the lack of young players.
Dave, now be honest, you were betting with someone on which monkey would scratch his ass first on monkey island. Horse players are versatile.
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:05 AM   #34
JerryBoyle
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Is Hong Kong still doing well? Might give some indication as to whether it's a problem with the appeal of horse racing, or the structure/appeal/whatever of horse racing in the US.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:41 AM   #35
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I've found out over the past few years that it is possible to turn some people onto playing the horses. However, these individuals need to be recreational gamblers to begin with. I've turned a total of 4 friends / work colleagues into horse players in the last four years. They were all originally sports bettors.

How did I do it?

1) By sending them snapshots of winning ADW tickets that showed how I was able to turn $20 into $300+ in less than 2 minutes time.

2) By razzing them when they brag about the 3 game parlay that they hit the night before where they have to put up $100 to get back $175.

They don't have to be a fan of the game to be a fan of the wager.

Over time, they started becoming fans of the process. They would ask me questions about PP's and what does this and that mean....

Three of the four still bet sports as well and one has converted to solely horse racing and has become pretty damn good.

I realize that this says nothing about the overall state of the game, but if you're a gambler by heart, it's possible to develop the interest. Besides, as many have said before on here, the more you know about the game itself the worse off you are.
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Old 03-09-2019, 01:00 PM   #36
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They go to Del Mar.
Tons of twenty and thirty somethings at Saratoga. I love watching them at the betting machines trying to figure out how to bet.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:31 AM   #37
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People will bet if they think they can win. If they can't win they won't bet

The problem with running a rebated tote is that it makes it relatively easy for the entrenched big syndicates to win but conversely makes it almost mission impossible for anyone else to win. So you struggle to keep any rookie players in the game for long as they get hammered and leave

The Australian wagering figures for tote vs fixed odds the last few years are as follows

TAB TOTE 2010/11 $8.9 billion
TAB TOTE 2017/18 $5.5 billion

That is a drop of almost -40% in 8 seasons of racing for tote betting

TOTAL WAGERING 2010/11 $14.4 billion
TOTAL WAGERING 2017/18 $19.5 billion

But while tote wagering is way down total wagering is up about 35% in the same 8 seasons

TOTAL WAGERING-TAB TOTE 2010/11 $5.5 billion
TOTAL WAGERING-TAB TOTE 2017/18 $14 billion

So there has been huge growth in betting on horses in Australia that is not on the tote. Most of this will be fixed odds betting although some of it will be derivative tote bets (ie bookies pay odds based on the tote price)

Bottom line is fixed odds betting has grown strongly in Australia over the last 8 seasons while tote betting is dying

The people who run racing prefer tote betting to fixed odds as it gives a higher percentage return to racing than fixed odds (ie higher takeout). But clearly if you give players the choice they much prefer fixed odds to tote betting. The UK experience is the same

Fixed odds betting does increase integrity problems and you have the problem these days of bookies not wanting to bet winning players. But at least it gives non syndicate players a chance to win something. Rebated totes just allow big syndicates to clean up while everyone else loses
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:49 AM   #38
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I honestly can't think of a thing that horse racing has done in recent years solely for the benefit of the horse player. They may have done things that are coincidentally beneficial to the player.

Here is the problem with the current wagering system: the track experiences none of the risks associated with participants taking an edge. If trainers or riders compete in an unethical way, if betting from computer wagering is too sharp, late or just entering the pools in an unfair way, the track gets their cut. I've said it many times and I very much believe it...racing would be 1000% more fair if tracks "booked" bets.

Tracks would immediately eliminate high percentage trainers the same way casinos walk players to the door that win too much. Stabling horses at a track would be by invitation and Navarro and the ilk would be out of business.

Betting would be cut off at 3 minutes to post with detailed audits on every bet to ensure it came in fairly.

Trainer and riders would suffer significant suspensions if behavior was even "likely" nefarious.

The tracks would create an environment that was much more highly policed, or, they would have long ago shuttered. What they wouldn't do is allow the product to be so obviously corrupt because they would be footing the bill. It is sad they aren't as consciousness while the players foot the bill.
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Old 03-10-2019, 01:33 PM   #39
linrom1
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The biggest issue with racing for me is lack of quality. Racing is so boring that I can't even sit thru whole daily race card. It's not even a sport, its an exercise in milking pools especially at Stronach venues.

Why would a venue card 14 mediocre races otherwise? And why should fans care about jockey/trainer races?

The other issue for me is actually the very reason why people are interested in racing: handicapping. It has been an intellectual exercise for many, but, its becoming almost totally meaningless. Unless one is racing insider, how does one handicap multitude of layoff horses that now regularly appear in almost all important stake races? There are horses that make their appearance in Grades stake races after being laid off for more than a year? Its a total crapshoot as they can't be properly evaluated without insider knowledge.

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Old 03-10-2019, 02:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by linrom1 View Post
The biggest issue with racing for me is lack of quality. Racing is so boring that I can't even sit thru whole daily race card. It's not even a sport, its an exercise in milking pools especially at Stronach venues.

Why would a venue card 14 mediocre races otherwise? And why should fans care about jockey/trainer races?

The other issue for me is actually the very reason why people are interested in racing: handicapping. It has been an intellectual exercise for many, but, its becoming almost totally meaningless. Unless one is racing insider, how does one handicap multitude of layoff horses that now regularly appear in almost all important stake races? There are horses that make their appearance in Grades stake races after being laid off for more than a year? Its a total crapshoot as they can't be properly evaluated without insider knowledge.
I live 10 minutes from PARX. On normal days (including weekends), you have your pick of seating whether we're talking grandstands, bar/restaurant or outside. On the big days such as PA derby days, you can't move up there. I don't think the reason is because they are running two big races later in the day. Instead, it's due to the festivities that are going on all day such as local bands, kiddy rides, face painting, etc... These things are bringing families out. If this were to be an every weekend thing, you may see more families attending.

Sure....the racing becomes a secondary to most who are there but you will still get your inquisitive bettors who normally would not have been in attendance.
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Old 03-10-2019, 04:56 PM   #41
biggestal99
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Originally Posted by sharkie187 View Post
I have noticed that the sport has been declining for a few years now. When I returned from overseas and went to SA on a brght sunny Saturday, I saw the grandstands 1/4 filled what it use to be in the late 80s and early 90s.

From a betting standpoint...Here’s what I saw in the UK that made horse/dog racing popular.

-The betting focus is only win bets on a single race or parlays.
America has way too many wagering options: exacta, quinella, tri, super, high 5, double, pick3-6, roulette...some of these all on one race! The UK does offer exactas/tri or the bookies version “forecast/tricast” but thats not the main focus. Its simply win bets. And you either place your bet through the tote (same as the US) or take the bookie’s fixed odds which can be HIGHER than the tote.

-No limit on wagering.
Here’s where its vastly different. In the US, some states offer a minimum $1 WPS bet but the majority is $2. The UK tote is the same with a minimum £1 Win or Place bet. But the bookies...do not have a MINIMUM limit! Now, supposedly the rule is 50p as the minimum, but I’ve been to a few betting shops where guys were playing 10p, 15p, 25p win bets! And the public knows this and take full advantage of it! Can you imagine a fan going to a casino in Las Vegas trying to bet 50 cents to win on a horse at Gulfstream? They’d be laugh out of the casino.

-Paying out to more than 1st/2nd/3rd
For big races and big meets, there are advertisements everywhere on which bookie to go to to bet the big race! They got full page ads on newspapers, tv commericals, or web ads of the bookie’s name, name/time
Of the race, and entries and their odds. Then you see the subnote... each way (win or place)paying out to 5,6,or 7 places! Of course this big race has a minimum of 20 entries usually (Grand National, Queen’s Plate, Gold Cup, etc) but still to pay out to the 7th place finisher!!! If that doesn’t bring in crowds, I dont know what does...and its still 20p (or whatever).

-What do you want to bet on?
UK bookies usually take whatever bet the patrons give them. I can’t tell you how many times I made a parlay bet using different tracks at once! And you can cross sport the parlay too! I remember parlaying a horse at Newcastle with Manchester United beating Sunderland at 50p! The UK bookies have figured out to let the fans bet how they want to bet at whatever price.
Here in the US, the guys running the show tell us what we CAN bet on and there’s no crossing sports betting. Actually, until last year, I didn’t see parlays offered at the track anymore!
I will Add the betting exchange to your list.

It’s another option for win betting at fixed odds.

When you see 1,000,000 usd or more matched bets on almost every race in the uk.

It’s obviously popular.

Allan
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by JerryBoyle View Post
Is Hong Kong still doing well? Might give some indication as to whether it's a problem with the appeal of horse racing, or the structure/appeal/whatever of horse racing in the US.
This topic has been raised quite a few times here on PA. You might want to take a look at the following thread:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ng+Kong+Racing
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:15 PM   #43
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Is there a process that can effectively arm new people with the ability to enjoy the sport through wagering? In a word NO. That's gone.

The above is simply incorrect.

And it is merely the short-sighted factions of track management teams who routinely pave the path for the tiny sliver of so-called professional players in their wagering audiences, at the expense of the sport, its future, and all other players, who are effectively withholding that opportunity from the crowd as a whole.


Recently the bone-headed, wrong thinking prevalent on this website and around racing as a whole has finally shone a light on the difference between the misguided perception that newcomers are playing the same 16-20% "random-loss" game that most handicappers approach... and the reality that has the newcomers facing a far steeper challenge/house-cut.


Ergo, the first and most important step is to do something immediate to assist newcomers in their (otherwise impossible) quest to become competitive before their money and interest runs out. This is far more important than solving drugs in racing, (other) cheating in racing, or even animal safety.

It isn't the relative safety of ping-pong balls which routinely sends newcomers to the track's exits in search of an easier quest.

Tracks have known for decades the same opportunities to upgrade their fan presentation like never before, to include immediate assistance for newcomers and the steadily-inept, and they have done collectively nothing to this day. Usually because some high-roller who was a regular customer at their track before any of them began a career there convinced them that he, and not the big picture should be their priority.

Racing continues to languish with the same tired priorities at the direct expense of the society all around it.

It would be so simple to actively do something for everybody in the racing audience instead of habitually supporting the one percent to the general dismay of all others.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:30 PM   #44
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The above is simply incorrect.

And it is merely the short-sighted factions of track management teams who routinely pave the path for the tiny sliver of so-called professional players in their wagering audiences, at the expense of the sport, its future, and all other players, who are effectively withholding that opportunity from the crowd as a whole.


Recently the bone-headed, wrong thinking prevalent on this website and around racing as a whole has finally shone a light on the difference between the misguided perception that newcomers are playing the same 16-20% "random-loss" game that most handicappers approach... and the reality that has the newcomers facing a far steeper challenge/house-cut.


Ergo, the first and most important step is to do something immediate to assist newcomers in their (otherwise impossible) quest to become competitive before their money and interest runs out. This is far more important than solving drugs in racing, (other) cheating in racing, or even animal safety.

It isn't the relative safety of ping-pong balls which routinely sends newcomers to the track's exits in search of an easier quest.

Tracks have known for decades the same opportunities to upgrade their fan presentation like never before, to include immediate assistance for newcomers and the steadily-inept, and they have done collectively nothing to this day. Usually because some high-roller who was a regular customer at their track before any of them began a career there convinced them that he, and not the big picture should be their priority.

Racing continues to languish with the same tired priorities at the direct expense of the society all around it.

It would be so simple to actively do something for everybody in the racing audience instead of habitually supporting the one percent to the general dismay of all others.
STRONACH
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Old 03-16-2019, 08:18 AM   #45
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I don't have the ability to really break down this post without getting into politics, but GAMBLING overall is growing massively, so your "everyone is too broke to gamble" idea is obviously wrong and directly the opposite of reality.

People love to gamble, they just don't want to wager on horse racing because there are a lot of better options.
Gambling may be growing, in some areas, but I think it's peaking. It wasn't that long ago you had to travel to Vegas or Atlantic City for something other than the lottery or racing. Now there's a riverboat, Indian Casino or video poker lounge within a half hour of many of us.

But the point I'm trying to make is that horse racing doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the overall trend is clear - as the wealthier, older generations die off that had pensions and disposable income, the younger generations won't be able to replace the handle.
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