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Old 11-12-2018, 03:44 PM   #61
bobphilo
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Yep, you'll find the list of tracks in the U.S. and Canada using TPD here. It's free:

https://www.drf.com/news/woodbine-la...-timing-system
Here's the link to the Trakus tracks:

https://trakus.com/partner-racecourses/
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:08 PM   #62
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Here's the link to the Trakus tracks:

https://trakus.com/partner-racecourses/

pretty sure that's not kept up to date.
they might still have the aerial stuff(found on hkjc site) but nowhere can i find the data, neither on trakus nor the hkjc site.



its' basically irrelevant anyway, the winners will keep on winning and so will the losers.
the winners will be able to use it much more proficiently than the losers, thus the end result stays the same.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:14 PM   #63
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If you have been reading my complete posts you would know that I have repeatedly said that such a technology already exists and is being used by an increasing number of tracks called TPD. It uses a GPS satellite tracking system. The device uses something like a cell phone embedded in each horses saddle cloth. After many months of successful testing several tracks in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. are using it. It not only shows position, ground loss and accurate sectional times for every horse. It even measures stride length and cadence speed. It has seemed to have solved the problem of occasional errors inherent with Trakus and is much easier to install as it does not involve setting up receivers at various points of call on the track. It can report data at any point including furlong by furlong data in real time. It will even be extremely useful in timing workouts which are notoriously inaccurate due to hand timing. No, I do not work for TPD. For more info, here's the link:

http://www.totalperformancedata.com/

BTW, my statement regarding your lack of success using speed figures was based on statements you yourself made that you were not getting the desired results so you gave them up entirely in favor of tote board analysis and in so doing you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I can't speak to the ground traveled part as of yet, but the timing is not great in my opinion. It is a step backwards as I don't think the accuracy is where it should be to be used as official timing anywhere yet. I find far too many races that just don't make sense and when I check them, many have pretty big timing errors at one or more calls. I can only assume the ones I don't check aren't all that accurate either, they just don't raise big red flags.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:22 PM   #64
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pretty sure that's not kept up to date.
they might still have the aerial stuff(found on hkjc site) but nowhere can i find the data, neither on trakus nor the hkjc site.



its' basically irrelevant anyway, the winners will keep on winning and so will the losers.
the winners will be able to use it much more proficiently than the losers, thus the end result stays the same.
Yeah, the Hong Kong JC no longer uses it. Wouldn't be too surprised if they go with TPD in future.

Information does make a difference. One can always improve their handicapping when armed with more accurate info if they're willing to dig it up and, of course, use it properly. No such thing as having too much of an edge.

Last edited by bobphilo; 11-12-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:29 PM   #65
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I can't speak to the ground traveled part as of yet, but the timing is not great in my opinion. It is a step backwards as I don't think the accuracy is where it should be to be used as official timing anywhere yet. I find far too many races that just don't make sense and when I check them, many have pretty big timing errors at one or more calls. I can only assume the ones I don't check aren't all that accurate either, they just don't raise big red flags.
I can't speak to the timing issue since I only use it for ground loss and the aerial views to spot trouble. Haven't had any problem with that, though one time I got a laugh out of one replay reconstruction when one horse moved through another.

Haven't found any TPD info yet though it seems to be an improvement over Trakus based on their methodology. I wouldn't want to fly cross country in the Wright brothers' plane but it was a major step in air travel.

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Old 11-12-2018, 04:45 PM   #66
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I can't speak to the timing issue since I only use it for ground loss and the aerial views to spot trouble. Haven't had any problem with that, though one time I got a laugh out of one replay reconstruction when one horse moved through another.

Haven't found any TPD info yet though it seems to be an improvement over Trakus based on their methodology. I wouldn't want to fly cross country in the Wright brothers' plane but it was a major step in air travel.
The problem is anyone that uses figures is using the times, just indirectly. I'm sure I miss plenty errors and I'm much more diligent than most others out there.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:01 PM   #67
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Yeah, the Hong Kong JC no longer uses it. Wouldn't be too surprised if they go with TPD in future.

Information does make a difference. One can always improve their handicapping when armed with more accurate info if they're willing to dig it up and, of course, use it properly. No such thing as having too much of an edge.

their own sections are fine, in more than 10 years, i am yet to find a timing error(ie: one that raises a flag)
hkjc seems to care much more than any other place.....maybe that's why trakus is no more there?

400m increments probably would be better than 200m ones, but for me it still gives worthwhile info that i can do stuff with.


whoops 200 would be better than 400 increments!

Last edited by steveb; 11-12-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:27 PM   #68
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The problem is anyone that uses figures is using the times, just indirectly. I'm sure I miss plenty errors and I'm much more diligent than most others out there.
I was about to say the exact same thing that it also effects everybody indirectly. I cut and and was going to paste it to a different part of my post but forgot. Another senior moment.
Hopefully TPD will be more accurate. Good thing you review times with the video replay though it must be a pain.

Reminds me of the time when Pleasant Colony was favored in the Belmont but it had been raining for days and the track was a swamp. When they asked Johnny Campo if his horse will handle the slop he said "That's his problem." That was one funny trainer.

Another time before the Affirmed/Alydar rematch in the Belmont they asked Jon Veitch if it hurt
Alydar to lose to Affirmed in the first 2 legs of the TC. He said, "He hasn't said anything to me about it".

One time at the Saratoga meet someone broke into the cottage Veitch rented and stole his wife's jewelry. He said, "This is the 2nd time I've been robbed up here. The first was when I rented the place".

Last edited by bobphilo; 11-12-2018 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:00 AM   #69
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That amazes me that they can add an entire pole or more to a race by moving the gate, and do it so cavalierly, as if it's meaningless.

Nitro's example of the horses traveling at different speeds, and whether they are accelerating or decelerating, was made at the quarter pole, and made his point. But from a handicapping standpoint, that very factor at the stretch call is where it really makes a difference in the selection process, IMO. There could be many reasons a horse is accelerating or decelerating at the 1/4 pole, but at the 1/8th pole, we're all sprinting for the finish, and how the trailing horses are running in relation to the leader is all pretty much based on effort, conditioning, and/or ability.

I feel like I have put as much time into thinking about handicapping a horse race as anybody could, but there are contributors to this board that make me feel like a toddler. We have a lot of smart, capable people contributing to this forum.
Somehow I missed your post and I think what happens during running of the first ½ mile (4 furlongs) of a race is very significant as to how it will affect its outcome. That’s why I used it in my example of what I called the “Phantom Dynamic”.

However, I see your point as it relates to the final ¼ mile of a race at any distance. In fact, now that you mention it, from a handicapping perspective perhaps the final time is more valued for comparison purposes than any other portion of the race.

So here’s some more food for thought when it comes trying to establish more accurate final times of the horses trailing the winner (whose time we know). After all, these are the horses which will compete either against one another again at some point or other horses that were involved in different races at perhaps even different distances.

In this example I’ll use just 3 horses using the same 6 furlong criteria that was mentioned previously:
Quote:
The Race Time: ¾ mile) - 1:12 flat (72) sec
Establishing the “Beaten Length
If the final ¼ m is covered in 25.2 sec than the final avg velocity = 52.3 ft/sec
Dividing this velocity by a 1/5th of a second = 10.46 feet
Factual summary:
It took the leading horse an additional 25.2 seconds to reach the finish line.
Okay so lets say that at the ¼ pole entry (B) was traveling right along side of the Winner (A). They hit the 1/16th pole and suddenly entry (B) starts falling behind. Its not that Winner (A) is accelerating away, no it’s because entry (B) is tiring and decelerating.

In the meantime, there’s another entry (C) that at the ¼ pole starts making a strong late move and is closing on the top 2 (A) & (B). This only means that its velocity is greater than 2 front runners.

So the race ends when the Winner (A) crosses the finish line in 1:12 flat. At that moment all of the trailing horses are located at specific statically measured lengths behind the Winner (A) and may in fact be traveling at velocities other than that of the Winner (52.3 ft/sec). If it turned out that both entries (B) and (C) finished 2 lengths behind the Winner (A), does anyone really believe that both their final times should be equal (No matter what time factor you’re using to equate to a beaten length).

We could of course take this a step further and do the math to establish the actual final times of entries (B) and (C) based on not only the obvious differences between their individual velocities at the end of the race, but of the Winner’s velocity as well. The point is that just because they finished the race at the same distance behind the Winner doesn’t mean that they’ll both cross the finish line at the same time. (They would have to be traveling at the identical velocity of the Winner)
................................Once Again:
Quote:
Conclusion:
The actual measurement of a beaten length can vary at various fixed points in a race due to changes in the average velocities of the leading horse. However, computing the actual time of a trailing horse at any point of call should not be dependent on its beaten lengths in conjunction with the speed of the leading horse but rather on its own average velocity.

Last edited by Nitro; 12-01-2018 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:07 AM   #70
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There is a more accurate method of deriving a horse's time at a given point of call though it takes a bit more work. It's based on the velocity of the that segment of the race. When you know how fast they are going at that segment you can simply calculate the horses time based on distance behind and that velocity. Of course there is still some error possible but only when the horse involved and leader are going at significantly different velocities.

Actually, now that more and more tracks are using satellite tracking and GPS systems that give each horse's position, ground loss and exact time at every given call down to each furlong, the entire problem of beaten length conversion to time goes away. You must realize that as the technology improves so does the accuracy. We are not back in the "bad old day" days before methods of calculating times and speed/pace figures were less accurate.

In addition modern research in exercise physiology has produced much valuable information on evaluating methods of energy distribution with differing pace patterns. The problem is that few handicappers are incorporating this into their handicapping, using methods based on outdated
traditional lore. Fortunately, the information is increasingly there for those willing to study and apply it, giving them an advantage.
Regarding the last paragraph. Mind pointing an interested Handicapper in the direction of this information on evaluating energy distribution. Horse racing has long seemed a problem of energy distribution. People forget that speed relies on acceleration which relies on Power which relies on energy which relies on biology, genetics and Training. and maybe a little bit on the Jockey.

Thank You
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:37 AM   #71
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interset is TPD

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Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post
If you have been reading my complete posts you would know that I have repeatedly said that such a technology already exists and is being used by an increasing number of tracks called TPD. It uses a GPS satellite tracking system. The device uses something like a cell phone embedded in each horses saddle cloth. After many months of successful testing several tracks in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. are using it. It not only shows position, ground loss and accurate sectional times for every horse. It even measures stride length and cadence speed. It has seemed to have solved the problem of occasional errors inherent with Trakus and is much easier to install as it does not involve setting up receivers at various points of call on the track. It can report data at any point including furlong by furlong data in real time. It will even be extremely useful in timing workouts which are notoriously inaccurate due to hand timing. No, I do not work for TPD. For more info, here's the link:

http://www.totalperformancedata.com/

BTW, my statement regarding your lack of success using speed figures was based on statements you yourself made that you were not getting the desired results so you gave them up entirely in favor of tote board analysis and in so doing you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.
I joined their mailing list. Thanks for the link. Probably too expensive for a casual horse racing / betting fan but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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