The last thing Dutrow should be criticized for is Winstrol....

[Shenanigans]

Originally Posted by slewis

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

I'll repeat again what I've posted previously regarding Rick Dutrow, in case this postee... and others missed it the first go-round.

I have personally had horses with Rick Dutrow. (I think at one point we had 7 or 8 with him).
We no longer use Rick for reasons that are not important to this thread, nor would I hesitate to possibly give Rick horses in the future providing I was able to rectify some very minor issues with his operation.
Here's what I can GUARANTEE everyone as truth: (In our case anyway)
Our vet bills were LESS with Rick than ANY other trainer we use(d), including Tag and Mott.
Rick has always been as honest with me regarding our horses as an owner can expect, (which I can't say is the case for other trainers we've employed in the past).
EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.
When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectiveness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer implement his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own??
Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train.
Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).
I previously posted about the security at the Kentucky Derby (for those who dont remember, we raced a horse this year too, no jokes please thank you)
and for those who read it, I said there was an ACTUAL ARMED LOUISVILLE POLICE OFFICER (not Peace officer or Pinkerton type) assigned 24 hrs. a day with each Derby horse as soon as they come on the grounds at Churchill.
I spoke to the officer assigned (or one of) to Big Truck and he told me "Where ever your Horse goes, I go, I follow him everywhere".
Although I've never been to Dubai, Scott Lake told me it's much the same way, probably strichter.
And remember, they have a Zero-tolerance drug policy there.
So I ask again... how does he win not one, but two huge races there!!!
I've been very fortunate to have had horses with many trainers in the 11 yrs I've been going to the races full time, and have seen many operations, and most guys do things pretty much the same way. Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not.
Whether they are illegal is up to the racing jurisdictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.
But for those that think the cheating is so far out of control, it might be time to take up a new hobby.

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself? He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those.

[lamboguy]

good point about rick d. he is a good man and as far as i know does nothing wrong. i have horses that run in penn. as we all know steroid use is banned there. i have a filly that had winstrol on dec. 12. she has yet to shed her winter coat, and her coat is very dull right now. she has completely lost her agresiveness since she has been off the steroids. we continue to train her, and see some very small improvements, but i realise now that she can never win at the level that she ran at when she was on steroids. does that mean that i have to move her to a jurisdiction that still lets you use them?

i ran a horse at deleware park and my horse was randomly drug tested before the race. i thought that was a good policy. my horses trane at fairhill and ship to deleware, penn national or phildelphia to run

[magwell]

Originally Posted by Shenanigans

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself? He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those.

WOW..... he speaks kind of you

[Semipro]

Originally Posted by Shenanigans

The story Dutrow gives for his using steroids in his horses is hilarious. A shiny coat comes from good feed and a good groom. It's just a BS story he gives his owners so they don't question him about the vet bill.
Note: I am not knocking the man for the use of steroids, because I agree that 95% of the trainers do use them. However, those trainers are not using them to acquire shiny coats on their horses. They use them to keep a "level playing field." I have a problem with the "crock of poo" Dutrow feeds to his owners who want a shiny coated horse.
Not every horse in a cheating trainers barn needs "help". Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.
The reason his "medicine bag" was not present in Dubai is because it wasn't needed. Do you really think that trainer would send a horse that needs "help" to Dubai.
The reason his assistant trainers stay with him is because they couldn't take the pay cut. Look at Lukas' assistants. They didn't cash in overnight. They still had to prove they could train despite the barn they walked away from.
Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself? He's an admitted big time gambler. You don't think he'll pay out of pocket for his commission he'll get at the window?
FYI - a famous motto said by many trainers: "Never educate a stupid owner." and - "Treat your owners like a mushroom: Feed them bull and keep them in the dark."
Looks like Dutrow lives by both of those.

Why don't you just get off of Dutrow your boring bashing only makes you look jealous of his successes. Slewis seems to have alot more personal and professional knowledge of the man than you and I haven't meet many mushroom owners successful people have this uncanny way of getting out of the dark.

[Nacumi]

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles, resulting in an increase in his physical strength and health. More research into the reported benefits led to the synthesis of testosterone in 1935 in Germany. During World War II, German scientists began to synthesize other anabolic steroids, experimenting with human prisoners, and German troops, in hopes of increasing their aggressive tendencies. Adolph Hitler's personal physician reported that Hitler was given injections of testosterone derivatives for various maladies, bu it's pure irony that one of the initial therapeutic uses of was treatment of chronic wasting, the kind experienced by concentration camp prisoners. The Germans developed the first version of Winstrol, which hit new heights of abuse in the '50s with weightlifters and bodybuilders, and subsequently, with Olympic athletes from behind the Iron Curtain.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Good point. After all, we can argue that Alysheba, dubbed "America's Horse," was a product of Lasix. When he was on the stuff, he was a star. Off it, he was just plain ordinary, losing the Belmont by 14 lengths.

Alysheba came off Lasix and even shed the blinkers as a 4-year-old, his stronger, more consistent year.

What's silly, is nearly every single horse that travels into Bute territory will go on that medication for as long as they race where it's not "illegal," even if it's just one race. If a horse ran 10 races in NY, then travels to CA for one race before continuing to run in NY, there is a 99% chance that horse will go on Bute for his one race in CA. That to me is insane, but unfortunately perfectly okay since the trainer is doing nothing "illegal" by putting his horse on Bute for the one race.

Not a single person wants anyone else to have an edge, whether in racing, or any aspect of life. It's simply unrealistic to bash anyone who is staying away from what's been deemed "illegal."

Since Winstrol is currently not "illegal," there should be no judgement against those who have made it part of their maintenence program, just as trainers will take advantage of Bute when available.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by Shenanigans

... Personally, I don't think Dutrow would do anything stupid with BB. The horses feet on the other hand is a different story. Legally, they can be blocked. You can bet the farm they were. That trainer is not going to pass that "allowance" up.
...

A horse that has been "blocked" wouldn't need to be on a vet list of some kind???

[slewis]

Quote by "SHENANIGANS" in response to my experience having horses trained by Rick Dutrow:



"Just because vet bills are inexpensive doesn't mean the trainer isn't a cheater. Perhaps your horses didn't need help. Did you ever think that maybe the man pays for the "vet work" himself? "

And you're calling ME stupid ?????

Your honor, the defense rests.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by Nacumi

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles,

Wow! What a ballsy guy!!! He must have been nuts!!

[Nacumi]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

Wow! What a ballsy guy!!! He must have been nuts!!

The Dr. House of Victorian-era France, I'm sure. The old fine line between pure genius and pure insanity.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Nacumi

Do a little reading about the origin of injectable steroids, which have been around a lot longer than the sixties, in fact, as early as the latter half of the 19th century, when a French physiology professor reported he had injected himself with extracts of dog and guinea pig testicles, resulting in an increase in his physical strength and health.

I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

[Nacumi]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

I realize that. We've all heard the legend about Man O' War being a "hophead", so it's natural to assume that with time, and anecdotal evidence, doping would change from 'natural' substances to synthesized ones. Just like in humans, the drug of choice would evolve with supply and manufacturing.

[xfile]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I wasn't looking for the point of discovery, just the point where more than a handful of racehorse trainers might be dabbling in the drug....

PA makes a very good point here. They let the horseplayers know about lasix. They should also let us know when a horse is getting 'the juice' first time, all the time, etc. I call it 'the juice' because that is basically what steroids are. When I took them (Winstrol included) over 20 years ago that's what we called them. "That guy's on the juice", etc, etc And the stuff was expensive even back then. It must be extremely expensive now so not all trainers and owners can afford that type of vet bill every month.

[xfile]

Originally Posted by pandy

Fortunately it looks like steroids will eventually be banned at all racetracks.

Hi Pandy - Whether they are eventually banned (which is what it's looking like) or not the horseplayers should be given this information. Who's on steroids?, who's first time on steroids, etc. Just like lasix information.
Not every barn can afford steroid treatment so tell us who is? Can we only assume the large barns like Contessa and Dutrow? Maybe some smaller barns who have some cash backing them. That would be good information for the horseplayer to have. They keep us in the dark on this.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by xfile

"That guy's on the juice", etc, etc And the stuff was expensive even back then. It must be extremely expensive now so not all trainers and owners can afford that type of vet bill every month.

I seem to recall our trainer telling us that we could give our horses Equipoise (spelling?) but it would cost $150 per month per horse.

That's nothing compared to what a good stakes horse can win, but for our $4,000 claiming horses at Mountaineer it seemed like an expense we could do without. Maybe that's why we didn't win more?