Paulick: Time for Anti-Lasix advocates to move on to other doping problems

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

How so. Do they have special air in the uk that prevents bleeding.

And who cares about lawyers.

I care about the horses.

Allan

You obviously do not understand the differences between the US legal system and those overseas. Ours is built on the basis of the benefit of the doubt belonging to the defendant. Trying to prosecute a person for applying a drug that has some beneficial health effects is a non-starter.

Also, comparing horse racing to the major league team sport situation is a failure, too. Those have player unions, which make voluntary concessions about drug usage.

We have more freedoms here, and concentrated central power is less existent. It's more than a nuance ... it's our governance, like it or not. I like it because the upside is much more beneficial than these minor downsides.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Race day lasix is not humane.

Allan

Let’s see, who do I believe? The top equine vets in the world, or Allan? I’ll take the top equine vets in the world, thanks.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I believe the World Anti Doping Agency, which says it does mask and has no reason to lie, over the claims of horsemen who repeatedly lie about everything relating to the health of their horses.

The world anti-doping agency wasn’t talking about horses, if that’s true.

Lasix being a masking agent hasn’t been an issue for many years. The timeframe in administration and quality of testing make masking a non-issue. There are plenty of studies which prove this if you care to research it.

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by clocker7

You obviously do not understand the differences between the US legal system and those overseas. Ours is built on the basis of the benefit of the doubt belonging to the defendant. Trying to prosecute a person for applying a drug that has some beneficial health effects is a non-starter.

Also, comparing horse racing to the major league team sport situation is a failure, too. Those have player unions, which make voluntary concessions about drug usage.

We have more freedoms here, and concentrated central power is less existent. It's more than a nuance ... it's our governance, like it or not. I like it because the upside is much more beneficial than these minor downsides.

Hence the need for federal oversight. Make a law and states have to follow via the supremacy clause.

Nice and easy and fully constitutional.

Allan

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Let’s see, who do I believe? The top equine vets in the world, or Allan? I’ll take the top equine vets in the world, thanks.

Dehydrating a horse on purpose isn’t humane.

That’s known as a no brainer.

I know how to read lasix side effects labels.

Allan

[Tom]

Trying to prosecute a person for applying a drug that has some beneficial health effects is a non-starter.

Ever hear of marijuana?

[Tom]

I think horsemen are afraid of federal regulations because they know they will not be able get away with the crap they do now. The local race tracks are no real threat anyone who wants to cheat. And 3rd party regs would require accurate record keeping as proof the rules were met.

Racing operates in the 19th century.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Dehydrating a horse on purpose isn’t humane.

That’s known as a no brainer.

I know how to read lasix side effects labels.

Allan

They're going to dehydrate the horse with or without lasix. Do you want them to do it quickly so there's less negative effect on the horse or do it slowly?

You think a very short-lived temporary dehydration is less humane than having the horse experience bleeding or even death, not to mention developing lung scar tissue which makes his bleeding worse?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Tom

I think horsemen are afraid of federal regulations because they know they will not be able get away with the crap they do now. The local race tracks are no real threat anyone who wants to cheat. And 3rd party regs would require accurate record keeping as proof the rules were met.

Racing operates in the 19th century.

Keep telling yourself that, as we witness how well the feds operate the post office among other things.

[Tom]

I have said that before.
However, racing is in such sorry shape, even the feds would be an improvement.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Tom

I have said that before.
However, racing is in such sorry shape, even the feds would be an improvement.

I don't necessarily disagree, but only because there is NO WAY for the sport to govern itself. No group or person can wrest control from the powers that be in each state. Nor will the tracks give up what power they have. So while we bitch about the sorry shape of the sport, that's a big reason why, and it's no one's fault.

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Let the conspiracy theories abound.

There are zero trainers who think Lasix has anything at all to do with unclean racing. Zero. What they do think is that Lasix is needed because horses bleed in their lungs at speed. Guess what? Do away with Lasix, and then we'll just do what they do in Europe and what we did in the old days, which is tie the horse up to the side of the stall for 9 hours and withhold all water, you know, really good stuff like that. Or letting them bleed, which is very uncomfortable for the horse when he suddenly finds he can't breathe. Or worse, let him bleed so severely that he actually dies of bleeding. You think that's more humane than giving the horse a simple shot before a race and then giving him electrolyte replacements after the race?

Lasix is the MOST HUMANE treatment for EIPH in horses. Treating the horse humanely should be the top priority.

If humans experienced bleeding in the lungs when they ran, which of you would just let your child bleed in his lungs, resulting in scarring the child's lungs, instead of giving the child a simple treatment that allowed him to play safely?

LASIX is NOT THE PROBLEM, and it's absurd that we keep talking about it.

As a prophylactic treatment in horses, IV Lasix is NOT Humane in my opinion.

I have had IV Lasix twice in my life (both during Chemo) and it was a HORRIBLE experience both times. It felt like someone reached into my body and squeezed both kidneys and my bladder as hard as possible. I couldn't be more than 10 feet from the toilet for the next 45 minutes to an hour. I would never agree to have IV Lasix again unless the potential cost to my health were significant compared to the harm.

Considering horses feel pain and discomfort the same way humans do there is absolutely no reason to put them through this to prevent EIPH if they have never had it previously.

Perhaps it is Humane for horses who have had EIPH because there is a benefit worth the cost (in terms of pain and discomfort). I will leave that to others to decide.

On a related topic, I've read comparisons of the pill form of Lasix most humans take as a basis for statements Lasix is safe for horses. There is NO comparison to the pill and IV forms of the drug. IV Lasix kicks in within minutes while pills dissolve and reach the kidneys over time.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

As a prophylactic treatment in horses, IV Lasix is NOT Humane in my opinion.

I have had IV Lasix twice in my life (both during Chemo) and it was a HORRIBLE experience both times. It felt like someone reached into my body and squeezed both kidneys and my bladder as hard as possible. I couldn't be more than 10 feet from the toilet for the next 45 minutes to an hour. I would never agree to have IV Lasix again unless the potential cost to my health were significant compared to the harm.

Considering horses feel pain and discomfort the same way humans do there is absolutely no reason to put them through this to prevent EIPH if they have never had it previously.

Perhaps it is Humane for horses who have had EIPH because there is a benefit worth the cost (in terms of pain and discomfort). I will leave that to others to decide.

On a related topic, I've read comparisons of the pill form of Lasix most humans take as a basis for statements Lasix is safe for horses. There is NO comparison to the pill and IV forms of the drug. IV Lasix kicks in within minutes while pills dissolve and reach the kidneys over time.

That is sobering. I am all for the ban of this drug.

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

They're going to dehydrate the horse with or without lasix. Do you want them to do it quickly so there's less negative effect on the horse or do it slowly?

You think a very short-lived temporary dehydration is less humane than having the horse experience bleeding or even death, not to mention developing lung scar tissue which makes his bleeding worse?

Dehydration is an easy issue to solve. State vets and Racing Stewards are in the barns every day and can determine when a horse has been denied water. Then they scratch the horse. End of the practice quickly ensues.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

As a prophylactic treatment in horses, IV Lasix is NOT Humane in my opinion.

I have had IV Lasix twice in my life (both during Chemo) and it was a HORRIBLE experience both times. It felt like someone reached into my body and squeezed both kidneys and my bladder as hard as possible. I couldn't be more than 10 feet from the toilet for the next 45 minutes to an hour. I would never agree to have IV Lasix again unless the potential cost to my health were significant compared to the harm.

Considering horses feel pain and discomfort the same way humans do there is absolutely no reason to put them through this to prevent EIPH if they have never had it previously.

Perhaps it is Humane for horses who have had EIPH because there is a benefit worth the cost (in terms of pain and discomfort). I will leave that to others to decide.

On a related topic, I've read comparisons of the pill form of Lasix most humans take as a basis for statements Lasix is safe for horses. There is NO comparison to the pill and IV forms of the drug. IV Lasix kicks in within minutes while pills dissolve and reach the kidneys over time.

You don't think the top equine vets in the world would know if a lasix shot is causing pain to the horse?

Humans aren't horses, and no, we don't react the same way to medications. And thankfully, we don't have similar waste removal systems as the horse.