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Old 06-02-2009, 12:15 PM   #1
jasperson
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Question Run up distances

What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:25 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperson
What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.
Agreed as it represents a minuscule part of the race. It dioes a lot to explain why a place like Philly has extremely fast early fractions however that don't transfer at all. Same with a few other places.

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Old 06-02-2009, 12:34 PM   #3
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Run up

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperson
What effect do you think the inclusion of run up distants will have on handicapping? I am sure it will have some effect on early pace calculations,but overall I don't think it will much help of predicting winners.
The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thruncy
The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.

You do occasionally see a flagman at the odd track... I believe I remember seeing one a either Fpx or Dmr last summer... I'm trying to think, but can't remember which one it was off hand.
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:51 PM   #5
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Why do the run up distances change for the same distance,surface,track? For example the 5th at Belmont on 5/31, a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of 64 feet. But the 2nd race at Belmont on 5/30, also a 6f dirt race, shows a run up of only 40 feet.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:15 PM   #6
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Santa Anita Runups

Run up distances are a big deal on dirt surfaces and not so much on synthetic surfaces in my opinion. This is especially true on slow synthetic surfaces (closer biased) when all the Jocks have the brakes on early in a race. These are from Santa Anita.


Andy--
Hello. Your request for the various run up distances was relayed to me (I'm the track timer). Here is the info you requested

Main (Dirt) Track:

Distance Run-up from gate to start of timing

2 Furlongs 50 feet

5 Furlongs 82 feet

5 1/2 Furlongs 66 feet

6 Furlongs 85 feet

6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet

7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet

1 1/16 Miles 70 feet

1 1/8 Miles 63 feet

1 1/4 Miles 50 feet

1 1/2 Miles 170 feet

Turf Course

About 6 1/2 furlongs 84 feet (0 rail)*

107 feet (7 foot rail)*

131 feet (14 foot rail)*

1 1/2 Miles 24 feet (0 rail)**

35 feet (8 foot rail)**

89 feet (15 foot rail)**

154 feet (24 foot rail)**

195 feet (30 foot rail)**



1 1/4 Miles 52 feet (0 rail)**

114 feet (8 foot rail)**

163 feet (15 foot rail)**

230 feet (24 foot rail)**

283 feet (30 foot rail)**



1 1/8 Miles 18 feet (0 rail)***

66 feet (8 foot rail)***

80 feet (15 foot rail)***

138 feet (24 foot rail) ***

175 feet (30 foot rail)***



1 Mile 107 feet (0 rail)***

159 feet (8 foot rail)***

66 feet (15 foot rail)***

64 feet (24 foot rail)***

102 feet (30 foot rail)***





* The about six and one-half furlong races (actually 7 feet longer than 6 1/2 furlongs) are run partly downhill. There is a temporary rail that is frequently used to protect a portion of the downhill run and when it is in place it is either 7 feet or 14 feet out from the permanent inside rail. Since this increases the circumference of the turn, there are 3 starting points for the timing of these races and I've designated them as the 0 rail setting, etc. Location of the temporary rail (if in place) on the infield portion of the turf course does not affect the timing of the about 6 1/2 furlong races.



** The 1 1/2 Mile and 1 1/4 Mile turf races start on the downhill portion of the course but the hillside temporary rail is not in place when these races are run. The location of the rail on the infield portion of the course affects these races, so there are 5 run-up distances for each of these races, depending on the location of the rail on the infield oval. The mile and one-half race has approximately 2 1/2 to 3 furlongs of downhill run before the horses cross the dirt and run on the flat infield. For the mile and one-quarter races, there is approximately one furlong of downhill run before the dirt crossing.



*** The mile and one-eighth and one mile races are run on the infield oval with no downhill run. For the mile and one-eighth races, the gate is placed on the main (dirt) track so the horse have a very brief run (from 15-25 feet depending on post position) across dirt before they hit the turf course.



Official charts of the turf races run at Santa Anita include the rail position in the chart heading (usually at the end). If the temporary rail is in place for a six and one-half furlong turf race, the location of the rail is noted at the conclusion of the footnotes (chart comments).



I hope the information is of some value to you. If you have any further questions, feel free to email me at the above address.



Sincerely,



Jeff Tufts

Last edited by andymays; 06-02-2009 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:24 PM   #7
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Another layer to un-necessarily complicate decision making
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:24 PM   #8
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I know many on this Forum use sophisticated pace figures. Santa Anita is one of the Tracks that has many different run up distances. Many Tracks I ask won't even give them out and some don't really know.

The differences between 7f and 61/2 on dirt are big and the mile vs. mile and one sixteenth are big..
6 1/2 Furlongs 78 feet and 7 Furlongs 28 feet

1 Mile 172 feet and 1 1/16 Miles 70 feet


My questions are:

Do most Horseplayers that use pace figures know these run up distances?

And are these run ups caluculated into your programs (especially when the rails are out on the turf course)?

Last edited by andymays; 06-02-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thruncy
The majority of those who participate in this forum probably are not aware that thoroughbred races are not timed from the gate and that clockers who have to hand time races if the automatic system fails have no clue when to start the watch since there no longer is a flagman stationed at the furlong/timing pole. Nobody seems to question race timing and racetracks seem to have promoted the illusion of accuracy by using hundredths of seconds. It's all showbizz now folks....Recommend arming yourselves with a stopwatch.
Now that's a funny post. This site has the largest group of informed/knowledgable Handicappers and Horse people on the internet. And, you don't think the majority are not informed about RUN UPS. I'll take that wager. What they don't get informed about is when the automatic timers aren't working. Just more "keepum' in the dark mentality" by the Blue Bloods of this Industry.

Your post really indicates naievity about the majority of those folks on this web site. Admittedly, there are several "newbies" which come here for information and discussion to learn about Horse Racing. The folks here welcome the opportunity to teach/inform and share knowledge.

Last edited by Bruddah; 06-02-2009 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:11 PM   #10
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Quite important.

This is a factor that for decades has been "wish I knew"for this handicapper.In projecting the early pace as to who gets the early lead,raw times can be misleading,even more so when comparing runners from different tracks and different distances.When a horse that has been going 21 4/5 at track A never sees the lead when a horse from track B that shows 22 1/5 foot easily gets the early lead,you begin to see the problem.Often this will occur at the track in which both have been racing,but coming out of different distance races.
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:12 PM   #11
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Prior to the Pro Ride Junk era I made many good scores exploiting the run up distances when evaluting the pace. Two turn races were especially lucrative. Not only evalutating the early pace but also the video replays of Horses going wide into the first turn at Santa Anita. A typical early fraction on the old dirt course would be 23 2/5 where now it is a about 25. Wide into the first turn when the pace is fast is a big deal because the Horse is being "used" but when it's slow the ground lost is not as important.

Last edited by andymays; 06-02-2009 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:09 PM   #12
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If the runups were to actually change for same distance races on the same day, then having that information would clearly help handicapping, but as long as runups are consistent, the first fraction times will be consistent, and variants for the first fraction can be calculated, which would adjust for different runups at different tracks and distances.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBedo
If the runups were to actually change for same distance races on the same day, then having that information would clearly help handicapping, but as long as runups are consistent, the first fraction times will be consistent, and variants for the first fraction can be calculated, which would adjust for different runups at different tracks and distances.
That is the point, the run ups are not consistent, even on the same race card. Some tracks are better than others, and some days more consistent than others.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
That is the point, the run ups are not consistent, even on the same race card. Some tracks are better than others, and some days more consistent than others.

I have displayed the run ups for Santa Anita up above. Just curious about a few things regarding pace software or calculations from say Brisnet. I am a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff. Can you or anyone on the Board explain?

Are all the Santa Anita run ups caluculated into your pace programs and others like Brisnet?

How about when the rails change on the Turf Course?

Entering the data on a daily basis seems tedious to me but I would think it would pay off on the turf course????

Last edited by andymays; 06-02-2009 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
I have displayed the run ups for Santa Anita up above. Just curious about a few things regarding pace software or calculations from say Brisnet. I am a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff. Can you or anyone on the Board explain?

Are all the Santa Anita run ups caluculated into your pace programs and others like Brisnet?

How about when the rails change on the Turf Course?

Entering the data on a daily basis seems tedious to me but I would think it would pay off on the turf course????
Personally, I didn't try to track run ups. What I did was note when a particular day didn't make a lot of sense. I would go watch the replays and make note of any run up differences, which usually would explain a lot. So, the run ups would not be part of the program, but they would be built into the variants.

With the new information, which by the way BRIS has not added to their charts files, it will save me a lot of time. There is little doubt in my mind knowing the exact run up can create more accurate pace numbers than I currently am able to produce.
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