The last thing Dutrow should be criticized for is Winstrol....

[PaceAdvantage]

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.

There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.

So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.

If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

[ezpace]

The heavy use may have started when many trainers had success using them on race mares to take care of that menstral cycle problem,then the use PROGRESSed

[highnote]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.

There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.

So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.

If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

I assume nothing, but I am inclined to agree with you. I guess we'll just have to look to the champions of old - Citation, War Admiral, Man O War, etc. It's a shame to see the effect drugs have had on sports in general and racing in particular.

I think the Barry Bonds comparison is fair. Big Brown should have an asterisk by his name. No one forces trainers to give their horses performance enhancing anabolic steroids. If they have no effect, then they shouldn't use them, in my very humble opinion. Didn't someone say something about oceanfront property for sale in Arizona.

(BB = Barry Bonds. BB= Big Brown. Ironic)


You want to see a real Champion that came before the steroid age? Check out Citation -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_(horse)

Not only did he race as a two year old, he raced nine times his first season. He won the Triple Crown as a three year old and had 29 starts! He did not race due to injuries as a four year old; raced at age five and raced at age six!

All in all Citation raced 45 times and set two world records. Compared to Citation, BB (the horse) is nothing but a wuss.

[Marlin]

Check out Citation. The one horse I can say without hesitation was GIVEN the triple crown. Maybe the most overrated horse in the history of horseracing. Give me Noor any day of the week.

[highnote]

He won 16 races in a row. So maybe he was a wee bit overrated.

I'm not saying he didn't get some breaks and I'm not saying BB is not a champion. But for crissakes, Citation ran 45 times, won 16 in a row and set two world records.

They don't make them like they used to.

[Nacumi]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.There are many things you can criticize Rick Dutrow for, but administering LEGAL steroids isn't one of them, IMO. As Michael Dickinson said himself, they are used by 95% of the trainers out there.
So, to single out Big Brown as some sort of Barry Bonds-type of athlete is ludicrous. To suggest that he deserves an "*" next to his name if he wins the Triple Crown is insane.
If we are to believe Dickinson as well as our own common sense, then we must assume that MOST past champions (and this includes the likes of Secretariat onward....Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Cigar, Holy Bull, Go For Wand, Winning Colors, Invasor, Barbaro, you name them....) were given anabolic steroids at some point in their careers.....
It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters....to think that legal anabolic steroid use isn't utilized in a similar manner (especially when trying to sell yearlings and such) is only kidding yourself.

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/ac...5/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

[Yorker]

2/14/91 - Attempted to provide false urine sample by means of an appartus concealed upon his person and attempted to deceive state racing officials by such conduct.

Was it a Whizzinator???

http://www.whizzinator.com/

[xfile]

The racing commission told Dutrow they will try to get Winstrol banned by January and he didn't seem concerned. For what it's worth, about 20 some years ago I was a body builder and used Winstrol. All I can say is it gave me tremendous strength as a human, not a horse obviously. I'm a big supporter of Dutrow. He came from the bottom, sleeping in a barn at Aqueduct and a drug addict. He's come a long way. On one hand I am a Dutrow fan and definitely a Big Brown fan. On the other hand I do know first hand what Winstrol can do. Perhaps the quantity given, which is once a month on the 15th to the Dutrow stable, is not large enough to have much of an impact on a huge animal like a thoroughbred. The fact is Big Brown got his Winstrol on Thursday and then a monster race 2 days later. Coincidence? What's your opinion?

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It just doesn't make any sense to assume otherwise. After all, we see how PERVASIVE Lasix has become, whether a horse needs it or not. It's a true RARITY to find a horse running without Lasix these days...even first time starters...

Good point. After all, we can argue that Alysheba, dubbed "America's Horse," was a product of Lasix. When he was on the stuff, he was a star. Off it, he was just plain ordinary, losing the Belmont by 14 lengths.

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally Posted by Nacumi

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/ac...5/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

Only about five of the items listed in those 33 pages were for drugs-in-horse violations. The substances were the usual suspects, bute, mepivacaine and lasix. The rest were either personal or procedural. No cobra venom anywhere.

[Nacumi]

Originally Posted by Pace Cap'n

Only about five of the items listed in those 33 pages were for drugs-in-horse violations. The substances were the usual suspects, bute, mepivacaine and lasix. The rest were either personal or procedural. No cobra venom anywhere.

These are just the ones they caught. And no cobra venom because they hadn't developed the protocols for testing yet? In addition to all the other substances for which jurisdictions can't/don't yet test?
It's about character and 'edge' people, willing to bend the line/rules till they get caught, at which point they laugh, slough it off and get right back to work doing more of the same.
Our industry is in a very harsh spotlight right now, and frankly, to have this guy be the ambassador shepherding its next great "superhorse" is plain bad for business.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by Nacumi

Okay, PA. Thanks so much for the clarification. Let's review, then, shall we, all the things for which we SHOULD be critical of Mr. Dutrow? 33 pages worth here.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/ac...5/38903142.pdf

Personally, what kind of horse is BB without the Winstrol, etc.? Truth is, we'll never know will we, just like we won't know what kind of trainer Dutrow is without his medicine bag.

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

I'll repeat again what I've posted previously regarding Rick Dutrow, in case this postee... and others missed it the first go-round.

I have personally had horses with Rick Dutrow. (I think at one point we had 7 or 8 with him).
We no longer use Rick for reasons that are not important to this thread, nor would I hesitate to possibly give Rick horses in the future providing I was able to rectify some very minor issues with his operation.
Here's what I can GUARANTEE everyone as truth: (In our case anyway)
Our vet bills were LESS with Rick than ANY other trainer we use(d), including Tagg and Mott.
Rick has always been as honest with me regarding our horses as an owner can expect, (which I can't say is the case for other trainers we've employed in the past).
EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.
When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectivness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer impliment his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own??
Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train.
Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).
I previously posted about the security at the Kentucky Derby (for those who dont remember, we raced a horse this year too, no jokes please thank you)
and for those who read it, I said there was an ACTUAL ARMED LOUISVILLE POLICE OFFICER (not Peace officer or Pinkerton type) assigned 24 hrs. a day with each Derby horse as soon as they come on the grounds at Churchill.
I spoke to the officer assigned (or one of) to Big Truck and he told me "Where ever your Horse goes, I go, I follow him everywhere".
Although I've never been to Dubai, Scott Lake told me it's much the same way, probably strichter.
And remember, they have a Zero-tolerance drug policy there.
So I ask again... how does he win not one, but two huge races there!!!
I've been very fortunate to have had horses with many trainers in the 11 yrs I've been going to the races full time, and have seen many operations, and most guys do things pretty much the same way. Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not.
Whether they are illegal is up to the racing juristictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.
But for those that think the cheating is so far out of control, it might be time to take up a new hobby.

[Nacumi]

Originally Posted by slewis

I cant believe some of the nonsense I read here.

Uh, ditto. Several things you've said (spelling errors notwithstanding) I've found striking.

Originally Posted by slewis

EVERY SINGLE time Rick has told me a horse is bad and we needed to get him claimed or sell him privately, they NEVER raced well for any other trainer, including Contessa, who's probably the top claiming guy in NY right now.

Bad? Needed to get him claimed or sell him privately? In other words, to knowingly pass off horses with known problems to other unsuspecting saps? I understand this is the heart and soul of the claiming game, but please. No offense, but you wonder they didn't race as well for someone else?

Originally Posted by slewis

When I asked him (Rick) about steroid use (more than 3 yrs ago), he told me the EXACT same thing he's telling the press now, and what I posted, he does not think highly of there effectivness in the race horse, and uses Winstrol once a month to keep their coat's healthier, not to build unnatural muscle mass which he does not think helps.

Keep their coats healthier? Good diet, good internal health and good grooming makes coats dappled and shiny, but all that takes longer. I guess Marion Jones used whatever she used to make her hair shiny, not to run faster?

Originally Posted by slewis

I As far as his "medicine bag" goes, I ask how does a trainer impliment his "medicine bag" in Dubai while he's sitting in South Florida? Are his assistant's in on the game, and if so, why would they not go out on their own?? Heck, I'm sure if they bragged to some owner that they "knew" what Rick was doing I'm certain someone would give them a horse to train. Next, if he sent his "bag of tricks" to Dubai with an assistant(s), how do they get them past customs at BOTH ports (US and Dubai??).

Got me. Only Rick and his assistants know for sure, I guess.

Originally Posted by slewis

Obviously what separates the top guys is that they have come up with edges that the others have not. Whether they are illegal is up to the racing juristictions to find, but they just might be legal edges here, I don't know.

That was my point. If they take away the steroids, the top guys with the top vets will still have the latest and greatest "tools" with which to have a competitive advantage, including undetectable, untraceable substances, which often get flushed away with Lasix and a run. Until US racing mandates random out of competition testing and bans race day medications all together, the "edge" guys will always find a way to push things to the limit.

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Anabolic steroids have been around since at least the 60s, and have probably been used in horse racing since the early 70s. That's a fact.

Racing went 24 seasons, 1949-1972 without a TC winner. Then, in the 70s, 3 TCs were won in the span of just 6 seasons.

Is there a direct link here, do you think? Did the trainers of Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed (and/or Alydar, for that matter) simply catch wise before all the others?

I have no opinion at all as to the correct answer. It could be simply the random walk theory in action. Still, I remember wondering in the 70s why winning a TC at least seemed so much easier to accomplish in the 70s than it did in the 60s.

(Similarly, were there more two-out-of-three winners in the 24 seasons from 1979 through 2002 than there were from 1949-1972?)

[pandy]

Originally Posted by xfile

The racing commission told Dutrow they will try to get Winstrol banned by January and he didn't seem concerned. For what it's worth, about 20 some years ago I was a body builder and used Winstrol. All I can say is it gave me tremendous strength as a human, not a horse obviously. I'm a big supporter of Dutrow. He came from the bottom, sleeping in a barn at Aqueduct and a drug addict. He's come a long way. On one hand I am a Dutrow fan and definitely a Big Brown fan. On the other hand I do know first hand what Winstrol can do. Perhaps the quantity given, which is once a month on the 15th to the Dutrow stable, is not large enough to have much of an impact on a huge animal like a thoroughbred. The fact is Big Brown got his Winstrol on Thursday and then a monster race 2 days later. Coincidence? What's your opinion?

Fortunately it looks like steroids will eventually be banned at all racetracks.