Should trainers share some of the risk?

[Observer]

Originally Posted by DSB

...You always hear about the one big horse, but nobody ever mentions the countless others who fell by the wayside in the weeding out process. ...

I am well aware of the "countless others who fell by the wayside in the weeding out process." I see it each and every year.

All one needs to do is take a look at the Triple Crown nominees .. it's over 400 for this year .. only 20 will be allowed into the starting gate on the first Saturday in May. That's an awful lot of crushed dreams .. and yes, obviously many of those dreams are crushed at the hands of the big-name trainers .. whose names have been made by getting results over the years.

Generally speaking, when you have a goal, you go for what's proven. It's a simple fact of life.

[supercap]

Originally Posted by Observer

I am well aware of the "countless others who fell by the wayside in the weeding out process." I see it each and every year.

All one needs to do is take a look at the Triple Crown nominees .. it's over 400 for this year .. only 20 will be allowed into the starting gate on the first Saturday in May. That's an awful lot of crushed dreams .. and yes, obviously many of those dreams are crushed at the hands of the big-name trainers .. whose names have been made by getting results over the years.

Generally speaking, when you have a goal, you go for what's proven. It's a simple fact of life.

Your analogy of baseball players to trainers is flawed. It should be players to horses. Maybe managers to trainers is better. Both need talent, be it players or horses. Good example Joe Torre could not win a coin flip until he got to the yankees, now he is a hof mgr, why because of the deep pocket owner. Same applys to horse racing. Like I said stock Baby.
On your comment a second rate trainer could not keep a champion horse in top form. How would you know? Can you sight an example?

[supercap]

Originally Posted by Observer

Yeah, and there is no difference between baseball players .. because they all follow the same routines, too. Their magic potion is getting on a team like the Yankees, who tend to have an open wallet for talent.

I never said good horses had to be in the hands of Hall of Fame trainers to be good .. my point is merely that you can not take a great horse and have a bad trainer keep him great.

And by "Hall of Fame" quality trainer .. I did not mean trainers already in the Hall of Fame .. I mean trainers with a Hall of Fame type of work ethic .. because there are certainly differences in work ethics, regardless of whatever job is in question, even one as "simple" as being a trainer, since so many here think it's so easy .. just feed the same, use the same vets, etc., etc.

There are plenty of no-name trainers that are no-name for a reason!! Believe it or not, I do realize there are great trainers that are no-name, just in need of catching a break. (I thought I already said that somewhere).

A bad trainer can ruin a great horse, yet a great trainer could actually accomplish something with a bad horse.

Horses are not machines .. if they were, you wouldn't see such differences in horses that are claimed from one barn to the next.

The only thing hard about training horses is getting up early. I dont know where you get this fantasy that it is so difficult. Writing on an eraser board the horses schedule for the week! Please humor me with all this difficult stuff a trainer does. I forgot the hardest, call the vet to figure out why he is not running up to par.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

And they're all driving top of the line autos eh? Even the struggling trainers whose names people barely know? Really?

I know of a NY based trainer who is on the lower end of the totem poll...last time I checked he wasn't driving a Mercedes or anything close to it...maybe I have to check again.

I guess when you make controversial statements, you'd better be precise.
I re-read my comment and I did say that "even the little guys are driving Mercedes and BMW's."

Ok, I will be more precise because that was taken out of context.

Many many trainers who's percentages are consistantly under 10% for many consecutive years are :

A) Still in the game training year after year.
B) Driving very high end cars.

I dont know or care how they make or where they get their money.
I know of several... SEVERAL... NY trainers who were very successful businessmen (not in the racing business) prior to training, so what Im trying to say in this case, is, you never know how someone derives their income.
BUT......
The point I was trying to make... and I will be clear, is that I'm tired of hearing trainers tell me how they make no money (profit) from day money.

Even if it's $10.00 per day PROFIT per horse, with a 20 horse stable, that's $1400 per week, without hitting the board.

And yes... I agree their are small guys really struggling to keep their heads above water and several who I'm friendly with, have recently gotten out.
I did say (or suggest) it's a tough tough business.

[ralph_the_cat]

Since when do the "little guys" even run at Belmont anyways...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by supercap

The only thing hard about training horses is getting up early. I dont know where you get this fantasy that it is so difficult. Writing on an eraser board the horses schedule for the week! Please humor me with all this difficult stuff a trainer does. I forgot the hardest, call the vet to figure out why he is not running up to par.

What? Talk about jaded...

Allow me to get this straight. You're saying, in effect, that if you had in your possession the next SUPER HORSE (and you KNEW THIS to be a fact), and given a coin flip choice between handing your horse to Bill Mott or Naipaul Chatterpaul, you'd have no problem handing him over to Chatterpaul should the coin flip come up tails?

Because that is what you are saying. Trainers don't matter...only STOCK matters.

Something tells me there's no way in hell Naipaul even gets to sniff your "next Secretariat" if Mott is also an option to you.

The very notion that the only thing that matters is STOCK is absurd.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What? Talk about jaded...

Allow me to get this straight. You're saying, in effect, that if you had in your possession the next SUPER HORSE (and you KNEW THIS to be a fact), and given a coin flip choice between handing your horse to Bill Mott or Naipaul Chatterpaul, you'd have no problem handing him over to Chatterpaul should the coin flip come up tails?

Because that is what you are saying. Trainers don't matter...only STOCK matters.

Something tells me there's no way in hell Naipaul even gets to sniff your "next Secretariat" if Mott is also an option to you.

The very notion that the only thing that matters is STOCK is absurd.

Told you he won the PA award......

BTW... Naipaul drives a 450 SL.

[Relwob Owner]

Originally Posted by supercap

The only thing hard about training horses is getting up early. I dont know where you get this fantasy that it is so difficult. Writing on an eraser board the horses schedule for the week! Please humor me with all this difficult stuff a trainer does. I forgot the hardest, call the vet to figure out why he is not running up to par.

Your statement is definitely absurd....I am an owner who has a terrific trainer and here is the difficult stuff:

Getting up early
Dealing with a large staff and the issues that result
Dealing with a staff that often cannot afford to be paid much and often do not speak English very well
Dealing with physical dangers(you can refer to poor Jeff Lukas on this one)
Dealing with owners that dont pay
Dealing with owners in general-they tend to be annoying and often treat trainers like crap
Knowing the condition book inside/out
Dealing with other trainers who cheat
Dealing with jockeys and the fact that they(the trainers) can do their jobs well and the jock can mess it up.
Working every day of the year
Dealing with all of the politics present at every track in America

Enough for you? In your post, you might be referring to a lazy trainer.....otherwise, you have won my vote for most ignorant post of the year.

[macguy]

Originally Posted by Relwob Owner

Your statement is definitely absurd....I am an owner who has a terrific trainer and here is the difficult stuff:

Getting up early
Dealing with a large staff and the issues that result
Dealing with a staff that often cannot afford to be paid much and often do not speak English very well
Dealing with physical dangers(you can refer to poor Jeff Lukas on this one)
Dealing with owners that dont pay
Dealing with owners in general-they tend to be annoying and often treat trainers like crap
Knowing the condition book inside/out
Dealing with other trainers who cheat
Dealing with jockeys and the fact that they(the trainers) can do their jobs well and the jock can mess it up.
Working every day of the year
Dealing with all of the politics present at every track in America

Enough for you? In your post, you might be referring to a lazy trainer.....otherwise, you have won my vote for most ignorant post of the year.

The two items that I bolded are the worst in my opinion.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Relwob Owner

Your statement is definitely absurd....I am an owner who has a terrific trainer and here is the difficult stuff:

Getting up early
Dealing with a large staff and the issues that result
Dealing with a staff that often cannot afford to be paid much and often do not speak English very well
Dealing with physical dangers(you can refer to poor Jeff Lukas on this one)
Dealing with owners that dont pay
Dealing with owners in general-they tend to be annoying and often treat trainers like crap
Knowing the condition book inside/out
Dealing with other trainers who cheat
Dealing with jockeys and the fact that they(the trainers) can do their jobs well and the jock can mess it up.
Working every day of the year
Dealing with all of the politics present at every track in America

Enough for you? In your post, you might be referring to a lazy trainer.....otherwise, you have won my vote for most ignorant post of the year.

Dealing with a large staff is part of any business, the people who are organized and have good management skills have little or no problems doing that. Physical dangers are always present when dealing with wild animals, maybe they should try being a lion tamer for a day. Owners that dont pay usually exit the game quickly. Owners have the right to know what is going on with their investments, no different then calling your stock broker. if the trainer cant deal with the people who pay their livliehood time to get out of this business. There are down times between meets especially for the trainers who go from NJ or NY to Gulfstream. Trainers get paid no matter what the horse does. Dealing with jockeys? They deal with the agents very rarely do they ask a jock if he can take a mount for a race coming up in the condition book. The exception to the rule is a jock who has been on the horse previously and wants to get back on again. The condition book is broken up into an index and the condition portion itself. How tough is it to open the index and see you want to enter into a sprint for a 3 yo nw1x? Dealing with trainers that cheat? Its part of the game and the better trainers dont get involved in heresay. Jocks mess up? Its part of the game not every race will be run where a jock is in the best position to win. Dealing with the politics of the track? What job today doesnt have some sort of politics associated with it? If you think that a top trainer cant get lazy or complacent you dont know this game too well.

[supercap]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What? Talk about jaded...

Allow me to get this straight. You're saying, in effect, that if you had in your possession the next SUPER HORSE (and you KNEW THIS to be a fact), and given a coin flip choice between handing your horse to Bill Mott or Naipaul Chatterpaul, you'd have no problem handing him over to Chatterpaul should the coin flip come up tails?

Because that is what you are saying. Trainers don't matter...only STOCK matters.

Something tells me there's no way in hell Naipaul even gets to sniff your "next Secretariat" if Mott is also an option to you.

The very notion that the only thing that matters is STOCK is absurd.

Since you have this love affair with mott, I believe this is the second time you defended him. Simple case in point , It was by accident he put Cigar on the dirt ,he decided to keep him in California to run on the grass ,his poor performance led to them shipping east and putting him on the dirt as a last resort. What a brilliant move Mott made. I am sure Chatterpaul could not have made such a brilliant decision. Mott could not see this horse loved the dirt in the morning??? You give these guys way to much credit. The very notion you give trainers so much credit is very telling of your relationship with them. Are you saying Chatterpaul could not have gotten Big Brown to win the derby? State your reason pleae.

[supercap]

Originally Posted by Relwob Owner

Your statement is definitely absurd....I am an owner who has a terrific trainer and here is the difficult stuff:

Getting up early
Dealing with a large staff and the issues that result
Dealing with a staff that often cannot afford to be paid much and often do not speak English very well
Dealing with physical dangers(you can refer to poor Jeff Lukas on this one)
Dealing with owners that dont pay
Dealing with owners in general-they tend to be annoying and often treat trainers like crap
Knowing the condition book inside/out
Dealing with other trainers who cheat
Dealing with jockeys and the fact that they(the trainers) can do their jobs well and the jock can mess it up.
Working every day of the year
Dealing with all of the politics present at every track in America

Enough for you? In your post, you might be referring to a lazy trainer.....otherwise, you have won my vote for most ignorant post of the year.

You have got to be kidding right? I think it would take a normal person about two maybe three hours to figure this stuff out. Watch out for that condition book a very difficult read. But you are correct they are superb at one thing. Bamboozling and lying to owners like yourself into believing the bag of goods they are selling!!!!

[pktruckdriver]

Originally Posted by onefast99

Dealing with a large staff is part of any business, the people who are organized and have good management skills have little or no problems doing that. Physical dangers are always present when dealing with wild animals, maybe they should try being a lion tamer for a day. Owners that dont pay usually exit the game quickly. Owners have the right to know what is going on with their investments, no different then calling your stock broker. if the trainer cant deal with the people who pay their livliehood time to get out of this business. There are down times between meets especially for the trainers who go from NJ or NY to Gulfstream. Trainers get paid no matter what the horse does. Dealing with jockeys? They deal with the agents very rarely do they ask a jock if he can take a mount for a race coming up in the condition book. The exception to the rule is a jock who has been on the horse previously and wants to get back on again. The condition book is broken up into an index and the condition portion itself. How tough is it to open the index and see you want to enter into a sprint for a 3 yo nw1x? Dealing with trainers that cheat? Its part of the game and the better trainers dont get involved in heresay. Jocks mess up? Its part of the game not every race will be run where a jock is in the best position to win. Dealing with the politics of the track? What job today doesnt have some sort of politics associated with it? If you think that a top trainer cant get lazy or complacent you dont know this game too well.

Not much for the English Lit teacher, but man does it get the point across , and it is a great answer to lousy post....


Couldn't say it any better

[Relwob Owner]

Originally Posted by onefast99

Dealing with a large staff is part of any business, the people who are organized and have good management skills have little or no problems doing that. Physical dangers are always present when dealing with wild animals, maybe they should try being a lion tamer for a day. Owners that dont pay usually exit the game quickly. Owners have the right to know what is going on with their investments, no different then calling your stock broker. if the trainer cant deal with the people who pay their livliehood time to get out of this business. There are down times between meets especially for the trainers who go from NJ or NY to Gulfstream. Trainers get paid no matter what the horse does. Dealing with jockeys? They deal with the agents very rarely do they ask a jock if he can take a mount for a race coming up in the condition book. The exception to the rule is a jock who has been on the horse previously and wants to get back on again. The condition book is broken up into an index and the condition portion itself. How tough is it to open the index and see you want to enter into a sprint for a 3 yo nw1x? Dealing with trainers that cheat? Its part of the game and the better trainers dont get involved in heresay. Jocks mess up? Its part of the game not every race will be run where a jock is in the best position to win. Dealing with the politics of the track? What job today doesnt have some sort of politics associated with it? If you think that a top trainer cant get lazy or complacent you dont know this game too well.

wow. Looks like you should be a trainer since it is so easy....let me know when you start and what your win percentage is. Since you seem to dismiss all the things that I mentioned as being hard, you should be over 30 percent quickly-if you do as well as mine, I will give you a shot

[Relwob Owner]

Originally Posted by supercap

You have got to be kidding right? I think it would take a normal person about two maybe three hours to figure this stuff out. Watch out for that condition book a very difficult read. But you are correct they are superb at one thing. Bamboozling and lying to owners like yourself into believing the bag of goods they are selling!!!!

Man, another budding trainer? Pletcher, Asmussen and the other top guys must be quaking in their boots as you and some other posters have figured out that training is simple and easy....good luck!