Should trainers share some of the risk?

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Cangamble

I did a post last year on the cost of owning a horse FYI:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/0...hbreds-in.html

The difference between owning one at Woodbine versus Fort Erie.

That is a very accurate dollar figure, you left out that if the owner is in the US the difference is about 20% less. The US Dollar is at 1.28 as of today vs the Canadian dollar but the average was 1.20 since its low of even in June 2008. I did notice that the vets in canada charge about $90 for a scope and about 40% more for race medications.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by slewis

...Even the little guys that rarely win are all driving Mercedes and BMW's...

That's really an unfair portrayal, and a completely inaccurate statement.


And since day rates outside of New York were mentioned .. just what is the difference in cost for a NY trainer vs. a NJ trainer? And aren't the purses stronger in NY than in NJ? Wouldn't it only make sense that if you're going to play in a bigger pool, you're going to have to pay a bit more to be there??

[slewis]

Originally Posted by supercap

I disagree, all of these trainers do the same thing with their horses, the ones who can get the best stock are the ones who win. Give Pletchers stock to some no name in philly see what results he gets! i would bet not much different.

Winner .... We have a winner......

Supercap... Did you know PA started running a monthly contest who can write the funniest post and keep a straight face while typing it?

Well... with this post.... you've drawn off by 10.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by supercap

I disagree, all of these trainers do the same thing with their horses, the ones who can get the best stock are the ones who win. Give Pletchers stock to some no name in philly see what results he gets! i would bet not much different.

Not much different, huh?? Funny how people think certain jobs in the racing industry are so cookie-cutter. How far-fetched to think some people might just actually be better at doing a job than someone else. There are definitely differences in trainer's approaches .. they are not all doing the same thing.

While I do think there are some "no-name" trainers out there who just need some breaks to crack through .. there is no way that you give top stock to some nobody and still get the same results as a proven Hall-of-Fame quality trainer.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by Observer

That's really an unfair portrayal, and a completely inaccurate statement.


And since day rates outside of New York were mentioned .. just what is the difference in cost for a NY trainer vs. a NJ trainer? And aren't the purses stronger in NY than in NJ? Wouldn't it only make sense that if you're going to play in a bigger pool, you're going to have to pay a bit more to be there??

First of all, my statement is far, far from innaccurate.
Secondly, the day rates posted by others on this forum ($50) I think are the exception rather then rule. Trainers are getting closer to $70 or $75 per day in NJ, and $60 to $70 at most other mid sized tracks.
Scott Lake for example, races at many many tracks. Depending on the tracks, as of the last time I asked him, the day rate was different at each.
I've had horses with Rick Dutrow, and it was not unusual for Rick to ship your horse to Monmouth or Philly Park until the next time he raced in NY, because he didn't have enough stalls. The rate, even though my horse was at Philly Park, was the NY rate.
As far as the trainers costs go... NY is expensive. I hear hay is more expensive here, (although I cant figure why) and general costs of doing business is higher, but NOT to substantiate $100 vs $75.
BTW... I've talked to many owners who race around the country and we've had a laugh over the differences in day rates.
Lastly, IT MAKES NO SENSE (your last comment) that "the purses are higher blah blah , so owners should pay more".
If my horse can compete in NY, if we can win here, we are here.. if not, it's off to MTH, PHL, tampa or FL!!! Case closed.

[Observer]

Bigger Purses = Higher Profile Trainers = Higher Day Rates.


And again, I stand by what I said about the cars .. all the little guys are not driving around in fancy-ass cars.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Observer

That's really an unfair portrayal, and a completely inaccurate statement.


And since day rates outside of New York were mentioned .. just what is the difference in cost for a NY trainer vs. a NJ trainer? And aren't the purses stronger in NY than in NJ? Wouldn't it only make sense that if you're going to play in a bigger pool, you're going to have to pay a bit more to be there??

The purse structure in NJ has been increased for 2009. The J breds run for about the same money as the NY breds approx 44k for the nw1x allowance in NY vs 47k for NJ breds. The open nw1x up to nw3x are in the 39k range about 5k lower then NY except for Saratoga's meet which can get as high as 72k for an allowance. I dont know the purse increases yet for 2009 so these numbers are based on 2008. There are plenty of smaller stakes races at MP right in the 75k range that seem to draw small fields all meet long.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by Observer

Bigger Purses = Higher Profile Trainers = Higher Day Rates.


And again, I stand by what I said about the cars .. all the little guys are not driving around in fancy-ass cars.

There is a small parking area adjacent to the Belmont Training Track where trainers ride over to watch their horses train.

I could win this arguement very easily by taking some cell phone photos and uploading them here....

I wont bother...... your right... Im wrong, stop banging you're head.

I have no problem with people who make a good living without the production to substantiate it..... ask the CEO's of Goldman and AIG.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by slewis

There is a small parking area adjacent to the Belmont Training Track where trainers ride over to watch their horses train.

And they're all driving top of the line autos eh? Even the struggling trainers whose names people barely know? Really?

I know of a NY based trainer who is on the lower end of the totem poll...last time I checked he wasn't driving a Mercedes or anything close to it...maybe I have to check again.

[supercap]

Originally Posted by Observer

Not much different, huh?? Funny how people think certain jobs in the racing industry are so cookie-cutter. How far-fetched to think some people might just actually be better at doing a job than someone else. There are definitely differences in trainer's approaches .. they are not all doing the same thing.

While I do think there are some "no-name" trainers out there who just need some breaks to crack through .. there is no way that you give top stock to some nobody and still get the same results as a proven Hall-of-Fame quality trainer.

You are sadly mistaken my friend. Trainers use the same vets, same feed guys, They watch each others horses work. Backstretch help jumps from barn to barn. They watch each other 7 days a week, do you think one has a magic potion over the other? The magic potion is the bank accounts of their owners.
Take for example Patrtick Byrne won everything in sight one year ,2 breeders cup races, 2year old horse odf the year , now where is he??? Stock baby ! Stock.
Assmussen gets all the credit for Curlin, horse ran a huge number in his maiden at gp , So he gets his owners to plunk down 2mil plus for the horse. I guess he is a great trainer no one else could have done that! How about Bob Baffert , lets see he won the derby with War Chant what a great trainer! Oh thats right he bought the horse 3 weeks before the Derby , another great training job. Lets not even talk about Big Brown. He was a nobody until Dutrow laid his paws on him, where would we be without all these great trainers ?I mean owners!!!
My mistake you are right no one could have done these tremendous training jobs.Only these Hall of fame types!!

[supercap]

Originally Posted by slewis

Winner .... We have a winner......

Supercap... Did you know PA started running a monthly contest who can write the funniest post and keep a straight face while typing it?

Well... with this post.... you've drawn off by 10.

Thanks, What did I win????

[DSB]

Originally Posted by Observer

Not much different, huh?? Funny how people think certain jobs in the racing industry are so cookie-cutter. How far-fetched to think some people might just actually be better at doing a job than someone else. There are definitely differences in trainer's approaches .. they are not all doing the same thing.

While I do think there are some "no-name" trainers out there who just need some breaks to crack through .. there is no way that you give top stock to some nobody and still get the same results as a proven Hall-of-Fame quality trainer.

You may have a point here. Do you know how many of these "proven Hall of Fame quality trainers" start out with 40 or 50 high-priced, top bred 2YOs and systematically weed them out by training them and racing them to the point they break them down?

Chances are any of these HOF types that have a TC caliber horse fit the mold. And owners line up and sacrifice their horses in the hope theirs will be the one to survive. Sickening but true.

You always hear about the one big horse, but nobody ever mentions the countless others who fell by the wayside in the weeding out process.

So you're right. In the hands of a competent "no name trainer", many of these horses would get different results - positive ones.

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by supercap

You are sadly mistaken my friend. Trainers use the same vets, same feed guys, They watch each others horses work. Backstretch help jumps from barn to barn. They watch each other 7 days a week, do you think one has a magic potion over the other? The magic potion is the bank accounts of their owners.
Take for example Patrtick Byrne won everything in sight one year ,2 breeders cup races, 2year old horse odf the year , now where is he??? Stock baby ! Stock.
Assmussen gets all the credit for Curlin, horse ran a huge number in his maiden at gp , So he gets his owners to plunk down 2mil plus for the horse. I guess he is a great trainer no one else could have done that! How about Bob Baffert , lets see he won the derby with War Chant what a great trainer! Oh thats right he bought the horse 3 weeks before the Derby , another great training job. Lets not even talk about Big Brown. He was a nobody until Dutrow laid his paws on him, where would we be without all these great trainers ?I mean owners!!!
My mistake you are right no one could have done these tremendous training jobs.Only these Hall of fame types!!

Not to get off topic but Baffert won with War Emblem not War Chant.


And you make some good points.

[supercap]

Originally Posted by Mineshaft

Not to get off topic but Baffert won with War Emblem not War Chant.


And you make some good points.

Correct

[Observer]

Originally Posted by supercap

...Trainers use the same vets, same feed guys, They watch each others horses work. Backstretch help jumps from barn to barn. They watch each other 7 days a week, do you think one has a magic potion over the other? The magic potion is the bank accounts of their owners....

Yeah, and there is no difference between baseball players .. because they all follow the same routines, too. Their magic potion is getting on a team like the Yankees, who tend to have an open wallet for talent.

I never said good horses had to be in the hands of Hall of Fame trainers to be good .. my point is merely that you can not take a great horse and have a bad trainer keep him great.

And by "Hall of Fame" quality trainer .. I did not mean trainers already in the Hall of Fame .. I mean trainers with a Hall of Fame type of work ethic .. because there are certainly differences in work ethics, regardless of whatever job is in question, even one as "simple" as being a trainer, since so many here think it's so easy .. just feed the same, use the same vets, etc., etc.

There are plenty of no-name trainers that are no-name for a reason!! Believe it or not, I do realize there are great trainers that are no-name, just in need of catching a break. (I thought I already said that somewhere).

A bad trainer can ruin a great horse, yet a great trainer could actually accomplish something with a bad horse.

Horses are not machines .. if they were, you wouldn't see such differences in horses that are claimed from one barn to the next.