Question for Horsemen/women

[Bruddah]

After 40+ years of handicapping, I asked myself a question today that I really didn't know. It will be elementary to those of you on the backside I was almost to embarassed to ask.

I am "assuming" in a claiming race, the claims or shakes come prior to the race? (I really don't know)

If they are prior to the race, is there anywhere this information is listed? Where and When?

Thanks for helping with such a basic question.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Bruddah

After 40+ years of handicapping, I asked myself a question today that I really didn't know. It will be elementary to those of you on the backside I was almost to embarassed to ask.

I am "assuming" in a claiming race, the claims or shakes come prior to the race? (I really don't know)

If they are prior to the race, is there anywhere this information is listed? Where and When?

Thanks for helping with such a basic question.

I'm not sure what you're asking but the claims are drawn before the race.
There may be several claims in for one horse.
If you claim one, it's your horse immediately after the race.
My understanding is that the purse money goes to the owners who entered the horse. However, if the horse breaks down during the race, it becomes the claimers horse.
The owners and trainers are obviously told prior to the race.
The general public may be told after the race that so and so was claimed.
Whether or not that info is available from the track secretary before the race to the general public, I don't know either.

[Bruddah]

I suppose my real question should have been, does the Racing Secretary post prior to the race, which horses have been claimed? I have heard the announcements, after a race. However, if you aren't at the track and paying attention, it does no good. Especially after the race has run. The Rac. Sec. list other information prior to a race, why not claims?

According to information I have in a db, knowing which horses have been claimed prior to the race can be advantageous.

[ryesteve]

The problem with having this information released before the race is that a trainer who doesn't want to lose his horse will manage to get the horse gate-scratched.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Bruddah

According to information I have in a db, knowing which horses have been claimed prior to the race can be advantageous.

Absolutely spot on. The connections are going to try to get the claimed horse to go hard and get as much as possible out of it. If they don't produce in that race, when will they produce?

[Observer]

Claims can not be announced prior to the running of a race because the claim doesn't become official until the horses are sent on their way from the gate. Shakes are done after the running of the race when all parties involved are represented.

[point given]

Originally Posted by ryesteve

The problem with having this information released before the race is that a trainer who doesn't want to lose his horse will manage to get the horse gate-scratched.

Bingo. i recently read a thread on the same topic and this was the reason the claims were not announced prior to the race in Tbred racing, but i think they are announced for standardbred races. I remember years ago at Hialeah the owner Brunetti got in some hot water when he ran his own stable horses and got the message if his horse had a claim in and then he would have the horse scratched. Certainly made an uneven playing field.

[LottaKash]

FWIW...in Harness Racing, only a vet or the official starter can scratch a horse, prior to the race....as far as I know.

These days the claims and the number of claims on a horse, are now announced prior to the race start....This gives the players a key advantage that used to be hidden until now.....

And it is true, many horses run very, very big when a claim is entered....Often horses will bounce very big from those scary efforts, and will not return to action for a bit, instead of the customary weekly race..

best,.

[Mineshaft]

1-If you claim a horse depending on your jurisdiction the horse becomes your property when it breaks the gate or it sets foot on the track. It just depends what the rules are in your state.


2-Claims are not announced before the race and owners and trainers are not told of the claim till after the race. Now if you happend to be in the racing office when the claim is being drawn then you might know then but they dont call you on the phone and say hey you horse got claimed this race.


3-Shakes are not done until the horse leaves the gate because some states when the horse leaves the gate it is your property.


4-Sometimes the claims clerk will say we have claims in on the #4 horse and the #7 horse but its never announced to the public.


5-I agree there should be a list of all claims in the racing office when the claim happens. Maybe leave that list up all meet.

[stu]

Originally Posted by Bruddah

I suppose my real question should have been, does the Racing Secretary post prior to the race, which horses have been claimed?

Here are the mechanims at the places that I have worked.

At the claiming cut off (usually 10 MTP), the claims clerk (at small tracks may also be paddock judge, identifier, etc) pulls all of the claims from the box.

Next he verifies the time stamp makes the claim valid and all of the commission required information is correct. This includes the date, race, horse, new trainer, new owner, license numbers and signature. (Some get eliminated at this step).

If all of the following is good, then the claims clerk calls the horsemen's bookkeeper to make sure the new owner has enough to cover the claim and tax if required. (Some get eliminated at this step.)

At this point if there is a shake, the clerk has to wait for representatives from each potential claim to arrive. The shake occurs.

Along the way and after the shake, the claim is called to the stewards.

The stewards then call the winners circle to inform the runner or clerk of scales or valet to tag a claimed horse. If all goes well this call is made before the horses get back to the unsaddling area.

Next the stewards call the test barn (the location of the handoff) to let them know who to give the horse to.

Simultaneously, another steward calls the video department and the third steward calls the announcer. The public is notified.

Then the clerk of course, identifier, asst racing secy, or racing secy is called to be notified of the claim with all of the required information to mark the transaction on the foal papers. At this time the information is also relayed to the Equibase chart caller.

So in most situations, the only people that know that a horse is claimed and by whom before the race are:

- claims clerk
- bookkeeper
- stewards and the officials in the same room

On some occassions, the stewards must be consulted to determine if a claim should be voided. Since the stews are watching the race for infractions this conversation may occur after race is official.

[onefast99]

The claim occurs once the slip is dropped in the claim box, this occurs no later then 10 minutes until post time. Someone from the racing office will go thru each and every slip, if a mistake is made a claim slip is voided. If there is a shake a pill bottle is used and the numbers are drawn dependent on the amount of claims in on that particular horse. Should a horse breakdown during the race and was claimed that horse is the property of the person who claimed it. Shakes are done in front of the people in on the claim once the race has been completed and not during the race. Most racing offices have claim information posted right by the horsemans book. The list is updated after each claiming race. The track announcer will call out the horse(s)who have been claimed in the race.

[JustRalph]

I watched on TVG once after a race was over, and a horse had broken down, they held a shake between five trainers to see who was the new owner of the broken down horse. That was tough to watch. I believe John Sadler got the horse............

[Mineshaft]

Originally Posted by onefast99

The claim occurs once the slip is dropped in the claim box, this occurs no later then 10 minutes until post time. Someone from the racing office will go thru each and every slip, if a mistake is made a claim slip is voided. If there is a shake a pill bottle is used and the numbers are drawn dependent on the amount of claims in on that particular horse. Should a horse breakdown during the race and was claimed that horse is the property of the person who claimed it. Shakes are done in front of the people in on the claim once the race has been completed and not during the race. Most racing offices have claim information posted right by the horsemans book. The list is updated after each claiming race. The track announcer will call out the horse(s)who have been claimed in the race.

Shakes are done in Louisiana when the horses break the gate and that is usually during the running of the race. Seen it happen a lot.

[Cangamble]

In Ontario, claims have to be in at 15 minutes to post. Once claims are in, the clerk checks to make sure there is enough money in the account. Then the claims slips are checked for errors or anything else that may cause an alarm as a new ownership that may be questionable (like protection claims).

Around 7-9 minutes to post, a horsemen can go in and ask if there is a shake or not. Generally they have a good idea by the other horsemen hanging around who usually will say trainer to trainer that they are in on a certain horse.

The shake is done prior to the race, but the horse doesn't become your property until the gate opens. And I've seen jockeys scratch a horse because a claim was in on it.

Claimed horses are announced prior to the running of harness races, but not thoroughbred races:conf used:

Usually trainers don't know that their horse was claimed until after the horses are headed to the track, so they usually don't tell the jockey to waste the horse no matter what (because they don't know for sure the horse was claimed). Though I've seen that happen too.
Trainers are not supposed to be told they lost a horse by anyone affiliated with the track, though many have special relationships and seem to find out ahead of time.

I'm thinking out loud right now, but I think that claims aren't announced before the race to protect the horse from the jockey. It isn't like harness racing. Thoroughbreds can take weeks to recover if they are gassed.

[Imriledup]

Does anyone think that claims should be announced before the race?

If not, why not.

Thanks.