Did Restoring Hope help Justify tactically in the Belmont...?

[chiguy]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

That's the second time you posted that in a thread I commented in yet you didn't quote what I said. Why would you tell me to find another hobby and on top of that why would you think I would care what you thought?

Because you don't seem to enjoy this hobby. You complain about it non-stop. One of the great days in the sport in recent years was Saturday. Fantastic card at Belmont, great race by Justify and you just crap on it. Not sure how old you are but if this old guy can give you some advice....participate in a hobby you enjoy. Not one that upsets you. Racing is not perfect, nothing in life is. I agree with you on some of the causes you have taken up in the sport and you obviously have a passion for it which is great but there is not a grassy knoll everywhere you look.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by chiguy

Because you don't seem to enjoy this hobby. You complain about it non-stop. One of the great days in the sport in recent years was Saturday. Fantastic card at Belmont, great race by Justify and you just crap on it. Not sure how old you are but if this old guy can give you some advice....participate in a hobby you enjoy. Not one that upsets you. Racing is not perfect, nothing in life is. I agree with you on some of the causes you have taken up in the sport and you obviously have a passion for it which is great but there is not a grassy knoll everywhere you look.

Not a hobby with me. Maybe that helps.

I don't make stuff up. I have an informed opinion when it comes to California Racing and what goes on behind the scenes.

[Denny]

[Poindexter]

This has been a pretty interesting discussion. My thoughts are that Justify is clearly much better than anyone in that race and I cannot see a lot of scenarios that would have made him lose.

That being said when you put it all together it looks very scripted. Ownership groups owning multiple key 3 year olds, possibly keeping the horses capable of beating Justify out of the last 2 races. Then you add the fact that Bafferts other horse (whether intentional or not) proceeded to run interference enabling Justify to establish a nice and relaxed easy lead and it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Not because he is an unworthy Champion, but because he easily could have done it the right way. Horse racing fans want to see Champions exhibit greatness not be spoon fed a victory. This part of the game has just evolved into the cost of losing be so much, that the win at any cost attitude prevails. Baffert has made it clear over the years that when you need to win at all costs he is the man.

Whether a horse is entered as a rabbit and or blocking back the horse clearly isn't in the race to win. But at least the rabbit is just is doing his thing on the front end. If the the Rabbit is going to fast, Justify can just take back and pounce on him later in the race. The blocking back on the other hand that is taking up key space, pinning horses in and enabling Justify to go unchallenged through key portions of the race and is basically dictating the outcome. That absolutely should not be tolerated in this sport.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky

Exactly, Ruffian. Thank you for posting.
Tom is a complaining waste. If it was not for this forum, he would have to go back to what he used to do- cursing at the t.v. and yelling at the neighborhood kids.

Maybe you could find an adult to read my post to you.
I tend to write to people with IQ greater than single digits.
Try Denny - he seems to be just what you need.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Whether a horse is entered as a rabbit and or blocking back the horse clearly isn't in the race to win. But at least the rabbit is just is doing his thing on the front end. If the the Rabbit is going to fast, Justify can just take back and pounce on him later in the race. The blocking back on the other hand that is taking up key space, pinning horses in and enabling Justify to go unchallenged through key portions of the race and is basically dictating the outcome. That absolutely should not be tolerated in this sport.

If somebody wanted to go 3-4 wide on the backstretch to come up and take the lead from Justify there wasn't anybody stopping them. You see it all the time. Did you see anybody trying?

[Denny]

Originally Posted by Tom

Going to take you ball and go home because someone the internet doesn't agree with you?

Buh bye.

Written by a five-year-old ?

Or just a dumb old fool that can't spell or write?

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

If somebody wanted to go 3-4 wide on the backstretch to come up and take the lead from Justify there wasn't anybody stopping them. You see it all the time. Did you see anybody trying?

Most horses were hemmed in and could not have done so if they wanted to and why would they want to anyhow. Bottom line is remove RH, Justify battles Noble Indy early, Bravazo will likely be able to apply big pressure far turn and Justify will then have to hold off Gronk to win. RH eliminated Justifys two biggest obstacles. I am fairly certain Justify would have won anyhow, but that doesn't change the fact that in the Belmont stakes Bafferts other horse played an instrumental part of dictating the results (and the winning margin was only about a 1 1/2 lengths). If that works for you great, I prefer integrity and doing things the right way. But as posted earlier in this thread there often is controversy when Baffert wins big races and frankly this extracurricular crap really needs to stop. But he get away with it time and time again and it just adds to his wealth. So in his mind if it aint broke no need to fix it. It works for him and I guess the people that run racing feel it works for them too. Whatever.

It is not a big issue to me. I realized 30 years ago that this sport (not the gambling aspect) will never have huge popularity because it stars do not race for very long. So Justify is the horse of the hour. Next year it someone else, 6 months later it is someone else. Yawn. Every 5 years or so we see some interesting races (eg Chrome vs Arrogate) but even those rivalries are maybe 1 or 2 races and somebody retires.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Most horses were hemmed in and could not have done so if they wanted to and why would they want to anyhow. Bottom line is remove RH, Justify battles Noble Indy early, Bravazo will likely be able to apply big pressure far turn and Justify will then have to hold off Gronk to win. RH eliminated Justifys two biggest obstacles. I am fairly certain Justify would have won anyhow, but that doesn't change the fact that in the Belmont stakes Bafferts other horse played an instrumental part of dictating the results (and the winning margin was only about a 1 1/2 lengths). If that works for you great, I prefer integrity and doing things the right way. But as posted earlier in this thread there often is controversy when Baffert wins big races and frankly this extracurricular crap really needs to stop. But he get away with it time and time again and it just adds to his wealth. So in his mind if it aint broke no need to fix it. It works for him and I guess the people that run racing feel it works for them too. Whatever.

It is not a big issue to me. I realized 30 years ago that this sport (not the gambling aspect) will never have huge popularity because it stars do not race for very long. So Justify is the horse of the hour. Next year it someone else, 6 months later it is someone else. Yawn. Every 5 years or so we see some interesting races (eg Chrome vs Arrogate) but even those rivalries are maybe 1 or 2 races and somebody retires.

A. How does one horse a 1 1/2 lengths behind and next to the leader hem in "most horses" in a 10 horse field? Bravazo being boxed in was nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway, it probably would have been Noble Indy that did it if RH had stayed further back in the field.

B. Noble Indy set up behind RH's right hip instead of trying to go by RH and didn't try to go by at any time, so your idea that he would have been eager to go toe to toe with Justify seems a touch far fetched. In fact, some of the more extensive conspiracy theories have Noble Indy being Justify's second blocker.

C. You're going to have to explain to me why it is "integrity" for a horse to lay alongside and bother the leader into running less efficiently (even if no faster), but it isn't "integrity" to position a horse (without fouling anybody) so that nobody can easily do that. Somebody can still go by and try to take the lead. RH's presence only prevented anyone from breathing down the leader's throat right next to him. But no, your idea of "integrity" is those trying to beat the favorite being able to make a move on offense which the favorite's barn isn't allowed to try to legally counter.

Again, nobody was fouled by RH (which would change the equation).

[BlueChip@DRF]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

A. How does one horse a 1 1/2 lengths behind and next to the leader hem in "most horses" in a 10 horse field? Bravazo being boxed in was nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway, it probably would have been Noble Indy that did it if RH had stayed further back in the field.

B. Noble Indy set up behind RH's right hip instead of trying to go by RH and didn't try to go by at any time, so your idea that he would have been eager to go toe to toe with Justify seems a touch far fetched. In fact, some of the more extensive conspiracy theories have Noble Indy being Justify's second blocker.

C. You're going to have to explain to me why it is "integrity" for a horse to lay alongside and bother the leader into running less efficiently (even if no faster), but it isn't "integrity" to position a horse (without fouling anybody) so that nobody can easily do that. Somebody can still go by and try to take the lead. RH's presence only prevented anyone from breathing down the leader's throat right next to him. But no, your idea of "integrity" is those trying to beat the favorite being able to make a move on offense which the favorite's barn isn't allowed to try to legally counter.

Again, nobody was fouled by RH (which would change the equation).

Here is the aerial view:
https://www.nbcsports.com/video/2018...s-triple-crown

[BlueChip@DRF]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

At the 1:50 minute mark in the drone overhead video replay, it sounds like a jockey is calling out something like “Is he” but it is difficult to understand...was wondering if anybody could recognize the voice or what was said and why...?

https://www.nbcsports.com/video/2018...s-triple-crown

I think it was Geroux calling out to Castellano to get back in blocking position because Vino Rosso was getting through. Well, that's what it looked like.

[Denny]

The aerial shot clearly shows Restoring Hope committing a foul on Noble Indy going into the first turn. It also shows RH coming in and crowding/herding Bravazso on the first turn after that..

No claim of foul by any jockeys that ride for these big super trainers. Don't want to jeopardize a future riding assignment???

No inquiry posted.

It was all ignored by all parties concerned including those responsible for policing the sport - the stewards.

Dirty game, and they get away with it time after time.

Nobody gives a crap about the betting public.

They must think we're all idiots. Maybe we are.

I won't bet another Thoroughbred race till Saratoga as a show of disgust for how this sport operates.

May NEVER BET another race that Bob Baffert is involved in - with more than ONE HORSE entered.

[Brown and Pletcher have pulled similar in the past and maybe I'll drop races where they have multiple runners too.]

I was going to try and not post for a while, but, I had to make my feelings known to all here.

This crap has to end.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

A. How does one horse a 1 1/2 lengths behind and next to the leader hem in "most horses" in a 10 horse field? Bravazo being boxed in was nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway, it probably would have been Noble Indy that did it if RH had stayed further back in the field.

B. Noble Indy set up behind RH's right hip instead of trying to go by RH and didn't try to go by at any time, so your idea that he would have been eager to go toe to toe with Justify seems a touch far fetched. In fact, some of the more extensive conspiracy theories have Noble Indy being Justify's second blocker.

C. You're going to have to explain to me why it is "integrity" for a horse to lay alongside and bother the leader into running less efficiently (even if no faster), but it isn't "integrity" to position a horse (without fouling anybody) so that nobody can easily do that. Somebody can still go by and try to take the lead. RH's presence only prevented anyone from breathing down the leader's throat right next to him. But no, your idea of "integrity" is those trying to beat the favorite being able to make a move on offense which the favorite's barn isn't allowed to try to legally counter.

Again, nobody was fouled by RH (which would change the equation).

I think a lot depends on what your definition of a foul is. Noble Indy was 5 wide vying for early position trying to establish position for the first turn and next thing you know RH makes a right hand turn in front of him and is then floating in the 6 to 3 path blocking Noble Indy from getting within range of Justify. From that point on Castellano decides sit just off of RH amplifying the blocking powers of RH (which was Castellano's decision and had nothing to do with Baffert).

Now if I were Bob Baffert and I wanted to orchestrate a plan to help myself win the race with Justify, what tactics would I use? Well, let's see, I want Justify on a clear unchallenged lead. How would I do that. Well who can get in the way of that happening, RH and Noble Indy. RH, no problem, he is my horse. Noble Indy, well he can be a problem. Well what can I do with RH to help assure that Noble Indy is not a problem. Fast forward to the race. What better way to keep Noble Indy from pressuring Justify than what actually happened? What is amazing about what actually happened is not only was it a great way from keeping Noble Indy becoming an early pace factor, but it was enough to take a lot of energy from his own horse RH, so his pace presence became a non issue. He thus was a pure blocker. Bottom line is what ended up happening mirrored a brilliant strategy. Coincidence? That is the big question.

But why do these things keep coming up in so many big races that Baffert wins? The only logical conclusion in my mind is that he is orchestrating a lot of these things. Maybe not exactly how they end up unfolding(for instance maybe FG was supposed to just float out) but when you have 115 pound men riding 1000 pound horses in a horse race you can't plan for everything.

[BlueChip@DRF]

Originally Posted by Denny

The aerial shot clearly shows Restoring Hope committing a foul on Noble Indy going into the first turn. It also shows RH coming in and crowding/herding Bravazso on the first turn after that..

No claim of foul by any jockeys that ride for these big super trainers. Don't want to jeopardize a future riding assignment???

No inquiry posted.

It was all ignored by all parties concerned including those responsible for policing the sport - the stewards.

Dirty game, and they get away with it time after time.

Nobody gives a crap about the betting public.

They must think we're all idiots. Maybe we are.

I won't bet another Thoroughbred race till Saratoga as a show of disgust for how this sport operates.

May NEVER BET another race that Bob Baffert is involved in - with more than ONE HORSE entered.

[Brown and Pletcher have pulled similar in the past and maybe I'll drop races where they have multiple runners too.]

I was going to try and not post for a while, but, I had to make my feelings known to all here.

This crap has to end.

I guess Mike DeKock was correct.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by BlueChip@DRF

I guess Mike DeKock was correct.

Maybe you could explain what that is supposed to mean.
I have no idea.