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Old 04-20-2019, 11:26 AM   #16
Afleet
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Originally Posted by castaway01 View Post
I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.
2 y/o develop at different rates. Some 2 y/o knees aren't fully closed so they chip-thats a fact

I'm against drugs, but blaming those deaths at SA on lasix is factually incorrect
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Old 04-20-2019, 03:43 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by castaway01 View Post
I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.
I just crunched the numbers for SA which I got here:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/pdfs/eid/SantaAnita.pdf

They reported 6038 2YrOld starts since 2009 , and four breakdowns. That's 0.66 per 1000 starts. Compare that with their overall rate which is well above 2.0.

One could calculate the 2YrOld rate for the other tracks, if you want to prove me wrong. You can do that here:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.as...vocacy&area=11

Click on the tracks with the asterisks.
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:57 PM   #18
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Maybe the tracks have been listening to the complaints and suggestions from horseplayers -- and maybe U.S. track management sees how successful Hong Kong racing has become without the benefit of drugs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/churchill-d...2887--rah.html

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LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Churchill Downs will invest $8 million for an on-site equine medical center as part of several other measures to improve safety for horses and riders.

The historic track will also install camera surveillance with other improvements to the backside area.

Earlier Thursday, Churchill Downs and several other tracks announced they would phase out use of the anti-bleeding medication Lasix for horses within 24 hours of racing. The track later announced other initiatives, including advocating for additional equine medication reforms; the formation of an Office of Racing Integrity that will to develop uniformed medication and safety standards; formalizing concussion protocol for jockey safety; and adopting international standards for riding crop use.
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Old 04-20-2019, 07:25 PM   #19
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Maybe the tracks have been listening to the complaints and suggestions from horseplayers -- and maybe U.S. track management sees how successful Hong Kong racing has become without the benefit of drugs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/churchill-d...2887--rah.html
I don’t believe there’s ever been a true proven long term “benefit of drugs” in racing. Of course, a short term benefit might be for those in the know when they’re betting on those horses with drug enhancements.

The various Stateside racing jurisdictions may have been paying some attention to current events and commentary, but I would think a far better incentive for eliminating drugs would be to look at the history of local racing from every perspective before drugs became so prevalent (and legalized).

Not only has the restriction on drugs in Hong Kong leveled the playing field, they rarely have difficulty providing full fields of 10 to 14 entries/race Something else to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about HK racing: They don’t race as a proving ground for eventual breeding purposes. They race for purposes of racing and providing veracity to a quality product to their patrons . Period!

Why? Take a peek at the typical handle for each race in HK.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:16 PM   #20
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Why? Take a peek at the typical handle for each race in HK.

They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:41 PM   #21
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:49 PM   #22
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They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.
I disagree. What's wrong with only racing 20 races per week in one city? That's around 700 or 800 per year. That's probably more than some jurisdictions race per year. (I'm thinking the fair circuit.) How many do Keeneland or Saratoga run?

HK has a good product and the track is extremely well-managed. Bill Nader, formerly of NYRA, does a great job managing HK racing. A lot could be learned from what is being done there.

I prefer 20 races per week with 12 horses.

Maybe some people like to bet tracks that run 50 races per week with 6 horse fields. I don't.

From a horseplayer's perspective it is easier to follow the racing in HK. It is much more difficult at a typical racetrack in the U.S. to keep up with the workload.

In the U.S. if you want to make your own speed ratings you have to deal with shippers. Ideally, that means you need to make figures for all the tracks that ship to your track. Or else you skip the race or cut back on your bet, or accept that you are betting with limited information.

In HK I have time to make my own speed, handicap, trainer, jockey, and sire ratings and still have 4 days per week for other things.

One elephant in the room advantage of betting HK is that I don't have to handicap which trainers' horses are likely to improve because their horses are getting drugs. It seems like U.S. racing executives are finally taking steps to reduce or eliminate drugs. Unfortunately, racing in the U.S. changes about as quickly as the Catholic Church. So maybe in my kids' lifetimes there will be drug-free racing in the U.S.

Most importantly, and fortunately, I am not a compulsive gambler and do not feel the need to bet 7 days per week.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by the little guy View Post
They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.
Now there’s a narrow minded and obtuse comment for you. It’s coming from someone very entrenched with the grandeur of NYRA racing. Apparently from his perspective anything outside of NY racing is not fair game for evaluation purposes. It also seems odd that from time to time comparisons being made with HK racing become sensitive topics around here. It sort of makes you wonder what motivates that type of attitude.

But trolling? Apparently there’s also some confusion as to who initially referred to HK racing.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:14 PM   #24
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:19 PM   #25
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That's a good opinion piece. It makes sense to me. Healthier horses will run more often and that will mean bigger fields.

Remember what Ronald Reagan said about drugs? -- "Just say no."
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:24 PM   #26
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They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.
Your statement about making attempts to compare HK to US is a little concerning. Most people who have taken any kind of writing course have probably done a comparison and contrast exercise. As a journalist, I assume you understand comparison and contrast. If not, that would be a surprise.

It's useful to compare and contrast jurisdictions. If one track is doing better than another a study of contrasts might explain why one is successful while the other is struggling.

HK has 20 races per week. NYRA has, what, about 50 on average?

HK averages about 12 horses per race.

AQU had an average of 7 betting interests today (Saturday, April 20) -- 64 betting interests and 65 horses, if I counted correctly. Race 1 had a coupled entry. Two races were turf races with 9 and 10 horses. The rest of the dirt races had betting interests that looked like this: 5,5,5,7,7,6,7. That's an average of 6 betting interests for Saturday dirt racing at AQU.

On Wednesday, April 17 AQU had just over 6 betting interests per race. Three races had coupled entries with 6, 7, and 7 horses. AQU gets slot subsidies. They can only get 6 betting interests on average per race? Who would want to bet on that product? Apparently, someone.

HK allows NO race day medication. NYRA allows race day medication. Probably not as liberal as KY, though.

HK monitors the stables closely. NYRA? It's amazing how lax security is at the SAR stables.

HK runs mainly geldings in handicap races with some Group 1 and stakes races. NYRA runs modestly-priced claiming races on the low end to world-class stakes races on the high end.

As far as the contrasts go then, perhaps these are the areas NYRA could focus on the achieve more horses per race and larger handle:

1. Reduce the number of race days -- perhaps even run seasonal racing.
2. Allow horses to run uncoupled.
3. Run more turf races by shifting racing between between BEL and AQU regularly rather than seasonally.
4. Ban race day drugs.
5. Create a handicap division.

Last edited by highnote; 04-20-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:35 PM   #27
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Hong Kong is wonderful, but there isn't a lot of legal gambling over there. I don't think what they do is duplicable here.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:59 PM   #28
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Hong Kong is wonderful, but there isn't a lot of legal gambling over there. I don't think what they do is duplicable here.

HK racing has other forms of legalized gambling to compete against, just like NYRA. HK has horseracing, soccer, and lottery. NY has horseracing, casino, and lottery. NY competes with surrounding states. HK competes with Macau which is only 40 miles away. Macau casino's revenue is higher the Las Vegas strip casinos. That makes it formidable competition to HK racing.

NYRA racing was in decline before the AQU casino, not because of it.

There has always been underground sports betting with bookmakers not to mention the numbers racket.

There are other reasons for the decline in NYRA racing than competition. It just isn't a very desirable product outside of Saratoga and turf racing. 5 and 6 horse fields of horses racing on dirt is not as appealing as 14 horse fields running on the turf.

One reason the KY Derby is fun is because of the 20 horse field.

The Grand National has 40 runners. I believe there might be others in England with even more runners than 40. That needs a fact check.

If you give American bettors a steady diet of handicap races with 14 horse fields where every horse has a reasonable chance because of the weight handicap you will see a spike in handle.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:01 AM   #29
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I'm maxxed out on being nicer to horses. I think of jockeys carrying buzzers and industry low-lights and low-lifes who have control over a thoroughbreds care.

What am I supposed to do? Express my concern by donating to after care? Call my congressman?. Bet more? Pay $12 for a drf on-track?

I'm not even interested in this conversation because its far away from anything I do with betting horses.

Last edited by Suff; 04-21-2019 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 02:22 AM   #30
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I'm maxxed out on being nicer to horses. I think of jockeys carrying buzzers and industry low-lights and low-lifes who have control over a thoroughbreds care.

What am I supposed to do? Express my concern by donating to after care? Call my congressman?. Bet more? Pay $12 for a drf on-track?

I'm not even interested in this conversation because its far away from anything I do with betting horses.
Excellent points. No argument from me.
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