"Trainerspeak" on the record

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You're right Del. Everything is peachy. Racing is THRIVING. The sport has no image problems, and perception by the general public means nothing.

Keep on turning a blind eye to your fellow trainers who are cheating, and accept it as "business as usual."

Nothing to see here...move along, you whiny, dirty, losing, compulsive gamblers...

That's not what anyone is saying ... c'mon, you are better than that. I'd bet that there isn't a horse racing historian alive that would contest that protection, monitoring and testing of horses have taken cosmic leaps since the days of doping or intensive mob participation at the tracks. The sport always has had its challenges, and it does a far better job of policing now than ever.

Here's what I sense, though. The same frustration that I had after I caught a burglar red-handed one time. I came home to find a stranger running out of my backyard, and followed him two blocks, saw his getaway bud meet him and speed away. But after getting a license plate number, having a perfect description, and finding a Maglight and screwdriver inside my house, and watching a cop going through the motions of looking/dusting for fingerprints, hearing the news that the guy had been contacted, lawyered up and was not going to be processed because the damages were so dinky and I almost needed a photo to make the case airtight ... nada Not in so many words, but the message of the cop to have insurance handle things was unmistakable.

So, I ate the full cost of fixing my broken door that wasn't covered by the deductible, and took satisfaction in not having anything of value stolen. And absorbed my lesson from the authorities that, even though I technically had the goods, the system lets things fall through the cracks for practical reasons, sorry about that. Sooner or later the perp might get nailed when being sloppier, but no guarantees because we've got bigger fish to fry.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's become painfully obvious that you and Del approach this subject matter from a completely different galaxy compared to most others in this thread. And never the twain shall meet.

I bow out now...have fun trying to defend the status quo.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You're right Del. Everything is peachy. Racing is THRIVING. The sport has no image problems, and perception by the general public means nothing.

Keep on turning a blind eye to your fellow trainers who are cheating, and accept it as "business as usual."

Nothing to see here...move along, you whiny, dirty, losing, compulsive gamblers...

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but 1) the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where 2) masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

1) He got a false positive, so he appealed and requested a split sample? Isn't that how it works? The second sample came back clean - was he still given days? What damage was done?

2) How many trainers were suspended in this case?

Curious - are you willing to state your win rate over the past couple of years?

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

1) He got a false positive, so he appealed and requested a split sample? Isn't that how it works? The second sample came back clean - was he still given days? What damage was done?

2) How many trainers were suspended in this case?

Curious - are you willing to state your win rate over the past couple of years?

First of all false positives should not happen clearly there was a difference in testing and/or storage. The blood is drawn at the exact same time. This stuff can't happen. Whose fault was it? Was an investigation done to figure out why? No, trainers are at the mercy of everyone from the test barn to fedex to all the people working the lab etc.

What damage was done? Ok here you go....
-reputation. Everybody finds out about it and when he was cleared everyone thought the split test was wrong.
-money was spent on lawyers
-stress
-horses (yes there were at least two) were put on the vets list for weeks and weeks while additional testing was done. Costing owners money.
-second place horse was forced to run the next condition up for two starts assuming he would become the winner and he didn't. That cost that owner thousands.
-splits are over $1000. But if the split comes back good I believe this is reimbursed

I don't think anyone was suspended in pa but only because they were lucky enough to find the source however tens of thousands were spent on lawyers and testing

I am 15%

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It's become painfully obvious that you and Del approach this subject matter from a completely different galaxy compared to most others in this thread. And never the twain shall meet.

I bow out now...have fun trying to defend the status quo.

Geez.

Anybody can play the exaggeration game. (Maybe you're the type who thinks that NSA snooping on Americans' phone calls is awesome because it might milk out another 5-10% of the bad guys. ) Well, sometimes the benefit isn't worth the cost, or the cure for a fever (that some here misdiagnose as cancer, imo) doesn't require chemo treatment.

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.

Like him, I want the authorities to keep up with the cheaters, but there are practical and ethical limits to policing too. Long gone are the days where I put full trust in anything automatically ceded to the federal level, like the Jockey Club is threatening. Imo, it's not only unwise, it is naive.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

This is the disconnect. You think it is heavy regulated, but most don't. And I've got news for you, the results we see favor the side that the game is not regulated well at all, not even close. It just looks like window dressing based on results.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Geez.

Anybody can play the exaggeration game. (Maybe you're the type who thinks that NSA snooping on Americans' phone calls is awesome because it might milk out another 5-10% of the bad guys. ) Well, sometimes the benefit isn't worth the cost, or the cure for a fever (that some here misdiagnose as cancer, imo) doesn't require chemo treatment.

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.

Like him, I want the authorities to keep up with the cheaters, but there are practical and ethical limits to policing too. Long gone are the days where I put full trust in anything automatically ceded to the federal level, like the Jockey Club is threatening. Imo, it's not only unwise, it is naive.

If the local tracks and state racing commissions could handle the problems independently of other tracks and racing commissions, the problems would have been solved long ago. You are either willing to do what it takes to fix the game or you are willing to let the game disappear. The problems are national problems and they require a national solution. Of course some horsemen don't see the problems because they are too busy trying to survive in the short run to worry about the long term health of the game. But you have to search long and hard to find a bettor-only who doesn't think the game is in a lot of trouble.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

Why would you need a test? Can't you just watch the massive overnight improvements and the 35% win record and take action? Pretend you're Jeff Gural and just say "you're not wanted here". How hard would that be?

Also, why can't you and the other honest trainers boycott the entry box, if there's 98% honest trainers and 2% cheaters, i'm sure you all know, to a man, who the crooks are at your track, why not just round up everyone who is sick of the status quo and make a difference?

Also, your racing secretary can add a condition to claiming races that says "any trainer who is winning at X percent at the meet, not eligible". Have most claiming races for trainers who win 22% at the meet or less out of a minimum of 30 starts (or, something like that).

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

First of all false positives should not happen clearly there was a difference in testing and/or storage. The blood is drawn at the exact same time. This stuff can't happen. Whose fault was it? Was an investigation done to figure out why? No, trainers are at the mercy of everyone from the test barn to fedex to all the people working the lab etc.

What damage was done? Ok here you go....
-reputation. Everybody finds out about it and when he was cleared everyone thought the split test was wrong.
-money was spent on lawyers
-stress
-horses (yes there were at least two) were put on the vets list for weeks and weeks while additional testing was done. Costing owners money.
-second place horse was forced to run the next condition up for two starts assuming he would become the winner and he didn't. That cost that owner thousands.
-splits are over $1000. But if the split comes back good I believe this is reimbursed

I don't think anyone was suspended in pa but only because they were lucky enough to find the source however tens of thousands were spent on lawyers and testing

I am 15%

You're a 15% trainer, which puts you squarely in the non-supertrainer camp (that's a compliment). In my opinion, you should support efforts to identify and expel those trainers with an illegal edge. We aren't after you - hell we want to help you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Oh geez. What part of my post said anything about the sport not having an image problem? The problem is that outsiders like you have no idea how heavily regulated we are and what reforms are going on. And apparently you put you hands over your ears when someone tries to explain it to you.

I am not turning a blind eye to cheaters. But what the heck do you want me to do about it? It is up to the commissions. The guys currently cheating are using things that don't test. To catch them commissions are going to have to take the next step of out of competition testing. I would be happy if they did this if I was 100% confident in the handling and testing of samples. This year at Delaware a trainer got a bad test and the split sample came back clean, but the damage was done. So clearly it is not foolproof. In my opinion, when this happens it is almost always to the trainers detriment. There have been many glitches in Pa too where masses of horses got positives for something in straw. Mandella had the same problem with scopolamine. He proved innocence after being trashed in the media.

I am far from an outsider. And I know how much racing is regulated...but you know what?

IT ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE, if it ever did.

And when something isn't working, YOU FIX IT.

Don't tell me IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

Don't whine to me about how further regulation is going to INCONVENIENCE you and every other honest trainer.

WE DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT.

WE (the wagering public) ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM.

The cause of this problem is CHEATING HORSEMEN.

Take it up with them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Here you have an actual player like DelawareT trying to explain the many elements of a situation, the upsides and the downsides. It is very complex, not simplistic (so that frustrates those desiring the magic bullet). But that's no reason to storm off in a huff. He's doing it in a very patient way and he's literate, so why not listen and educate yourself, just from a devil's advocate debate standpoint? The last thing that I want to do is chase him away by calling him names.

Patient? He went off on grits, accusing her of "freaking out" when in fact she did nothing of the sort.

And as for all this "explaining," a lot of us here don't need the lecture. We've been around the game in many different facets. Just because we may not be trainers doesn't mean we don't know how it works. I've been exposed to MANY areas of this industry. From the shedrow and beyond. I've groomed horses, pulled bent nails from their hooves, etc. etc.

Am I a trainer? No. Do I have experience around horses? Yes. Have I known trainers? Yes. Have I been on the backside? Yes. Do I know about the various testing processes and regulations? Yes. Do I know how easily a trainer can be set up...can innocently have a horse test positive via a screw up on timing...can have someone in his barn contaminate a horse's feed...yes, yes and yes...

I have plenty of knowledge to engage in a competent conversation on a myriad of racing topics. I'm not just some gambler sitting at home in front of my PC.

So please, you and Del, spare me the "you just don't know what you're talking about, and we're here to help you" lectures.

I VERY MUCH appreciate all of the industry insiders on this board. From the announcers to the racing office folks to the on-air personalities to the owners and trainers and others who work in the industry. I appreciate the added insight they all can provide.

But don't ever assume that the person you are debating here on the pages of PaceAdvantage doesn't know the score. That's condescending and quite offensive on almost every level.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I am far from an outsider. And I know how much racing is regulated...but you know what?

IT ISN'T WORKING ANYMORE, if it ever did.

And when something isn't working, YOU FIX IT.

Don't tell me IT CAN'T BE FIXED.

Don't whine to me about how further regulation is going to INCONVENIENCE you and every other honest trainer.

WE DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT.

WE (the wagering public) ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM.

The cause of this problem is CHEATING HORSEMEN.

Take it up with them.

Who said anything about inconvenience? You just can't create violations for innocent people. Happens all the time in racing and that is just something we have to accept. It's called the trainer responsibility rule. For example, one of the biggest feed companies in the U.S. is Purina. They brag about quality control. Apparently their horse feed was contaminated with cattle steroid and a bunch of trainers got positives. Since there was so many they were able to trace it back. But a year before a got got a positive for the same thing and was put out of business. Possibly the same situation but couldn't prove it. This stuff happens all the time but you wouldn't hear about it

[PaceAdvantage]

Everyone is aware of the many risks involved with the training game prior to taking out their license...this is the game you play...and you take the rewards along with the risks...

Hell, even Bill Mott caught a positive once and was suspended...but his reputation is as above board as ever...so I wouldn't worry too much if one is indeed an honest Joe.

[Robert Fischer]

It is time for all medications, treatments, special shoeing, etc... to require a diagnosis and prescription from a veterinarian, and be electronically entered into a database, which can be referenced for future vet exams and available to owners, trainers, and horseplayers.


ALL OF IT
1.Diagnosis by the Vet of an illness or injury
2.Prescription of a certain drug or treatment that is meant to remedy that specific illness or injury
3. Entered electronically.