Older male Liams Map vs Honor Code?

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by cj

A joke? He isn't a champion, but he did win the Belmont and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. I'd take that joke anyday if were mine.

jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1. A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing. For God sakes commisioner ran 2nd. I don't want to get started on what's a grade one. There probably should be no more than 25 or 30 gr. I's. The grade 2 San antonio was tougher than the grade I Big Cap just like the Grade 3 Phoenix was deeper than the Grade I Kings Bishop. The whole system needs to be revamped. Who wouldn't want to own Tonalist. I would like to own Moreno and he sucks. Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1. A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing. For God sakes commisioner ran 2nd. I don't want to get started on what's a grade one. There probably should be no more than 25 or 30 gr. I's. The grade 2 San antonio was tougher than the grade I Big Cap just like the Grade 3 Phoenix was deeper than the Grade I Kings Bishop. The whole system needs to be revamped. Who wouldn't want to own Tonalist. I would like to own Moreno and he sucks. Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by cj

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.

JCGC has had better years, but Tonalist won the last two and he was an6easy toss in both Breeders Cups. I just remember a lot of great or very good horses skipping it, like Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and St.Liam. I must mention Cigar and Skip away running though .

[Kash$]

Originally Posted by cj

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.

Cj JCGC was weak this year. BC mile didn't exactly have world beaters.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Kash$

Cj JCGC was weak this year. BC mile didn't exactly have world beaters.

Very true, the JCGC was stronger race IMO.

[zico20]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

Tonalist is a joke.

Yes he is, except if he is running in New York. I called him an easy toss for the BC after his win in the JCGC. However, he could be tough in the Cigar being back in NY.

[Pine Tree Lane]

If Private Zone wins the Cigar Mile, he should win the Eclipse for older horse. Danced every dance, brought his game every time.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1.

What did you call the Woodward then, Copernicus? Nearly identical fields substituting Liam's Map for Tonalist.

A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing.

Really? Let's see:
2015- American Pharoah- won Haskell, BC Classic
2014- Tonalist- won JCGC twice, etc.
2013- Palace Malice- won Met Mile, etc.
2010- Drosselmeyer- won BC Classic
2009- Summer Bird- won Travers, JCGC

Prior years saw Rags To Riches, Afleet Alex, Birdstone, Empire Maker, Point Given, Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, Touch Gold, Thunder Gulch, AP Indy, Easy Goer.

What on earth are you talking about?

I don't want to get started on what's a grade one.

Apparently if it has Liam's Map and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 1. If it has Tonalist and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 3.

Makes sense.

Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.

There are always 3 finalists for the Eclipse award titles. If you don't think there's a good chance Tonalist is one of those (granted highly unlikely to win) then you are as out of touch as the rest of your post.

[reckless]

I'd have to give it to Liam's Map over Honor Code if I had a vote.

Liam's Map got zapped at the wire in the quickly-run Whitney Handicap, then followed that up with smashing, fast wins in the Woodward and BC Mile.

Honor Code did win over LM in the Whitney, but basically didn't run a jump in the Kelso Handicap and BC Classic.

I am disappointed (again) about Liam's Map's people not running in the Cigar Mile. I was under the impression that the reason his people put him in the BC Mile and not the Classic was because a BC Mile win, plus a win in the Cigar Mile, would guarantee an Eclipse Award as top older handicap horse.

He probably will still win the Eclipse Award.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

What did you call the Woodward then, Copernicus? Nearly identical fields substituting Liam's Map for Tonalist.


Really? Let's see:
2015- American Pharoah- won Haskell, BC Classic
2014- Tonalist- won JCGC twice, etc.
2013- Palace Malice- won Met Mile, etc.
2010- Drosselmeyer- won BC Classic
2009- Summer Bird- won Travers, JCGC

Prior years saw Rags To Riches, Afleet Alex, Birdstone, Empire Maker, Point Given, Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, Touch Gold, Thunder Gulch, AP Indy, Easy Goer.

What on earth are you talking about?


Apparently if it has Liam's Map and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 1. If it has Tonalist and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 3.

Makes sense.


There are always 3 finalists for the Eclipse award titles. If you don't think there's a good chance Tonalist is one of those (granted highly unlikely to win) then you are as out of touch as the rest of your post.

Call it a grade1 if you like. It's not. As far as the Belmont is concerned, unless a TC is on the line, you may have two decent horses in the field. If that. The only part of your post I agree with was your point about this years Woodward. The graded system is for breeding purposes , to artificially inflate the value of these horses. Imo the very best races only should be grade 1s.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

Call it a grade1 if you like. It's not. As far as the Belmont is concerned, unless a TC is on the line, you may have two decent horses in the field. If that.

You really are going to contest the importance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup? OK...last several renewals:

Tonalist- Belmont winner
Ron The Greek- Big Cap winner, Stephen Foster winner, top horse in Saudi Arabia, beat Flat Out, Palace Malice, Alpha, Orb
Flat Out- multiple JCGC, multiple Suburbans, Cigar Mile, he has a lot of seconds and thirds like Tonalist (because he danced every dance), so I guess he sucks, too; in his first JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Drosselmeyer; in his second JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Fort Larned
Haynesfield- 10 for 19 top NY-bred, beat subsequent BC Classic winner Blame
Summer Bird- Belmont and Travers winner, beat Quality Road (Donn, Met Mile, Woodward)
Curlin- Classic winner, DWC winner, BC Classic winner, etc.

Wow. That's a lot of BC Classic winners coming out of that race. Combine that with the Woodward, which since 2001 produced subsequent BC Classic winners Tiznow, Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, and Curlin (again) and you account for a lot of BC Classics.

Perhaps the BC Classic should be a Grade 3, too?

Meanwhile, the Belmont Stakes is a North American Classic restricted to 3yos. It's purpose is to identify the top class horses from that year's 3yo crop. In that sense, it is not uncommon to see fields with several unheralded runners, lest you expect the majority of 2yo stakes winners around one-turn making it to the race. If the race does its job, then several good runners will come out of the race.

2015- aside from American Pharoah, Frosted, Keen Ice, and Madefromlucky all won major stakes subsequently
2014- aside from Tonalist, California Chrome, Commissioner, and Wicked Strong all won stakes
2013- aside from Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Overanalyze, Revolutionary, and Vyjack all won stakes
2012- Paynter, Dullahan, and Optimizer all won stakes
2011- Stay Thirsty, Shackleford, Brilliant Speed, Animal Kingdom, Mucho Macho Man all won stakes
2010- Drosselmeyer, First Dude, Game On Dude, all won major stakes

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

You really are going to contest the importance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup? OK...last several renewals:

Tonalist- Belmont winner
Ron The Greek- Big Cap winner, Stephen Foster winner, top horse in Saudi Arabia, beat Flat Out, Palace Malice, Alpha, Orb
Flat Out- multiple JCGC, multiple Suburbans, Cigar Mile, he has a lot of seconds and thirds like Tonalist (because he danced every dance), so I guess he sucks, too; in his first JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Drosselmeyer; in his second JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Fort Larned
Haynesfield- 10 for 19 top NY-bred, beat subsequent BC Classic winner Blame
Summer Bird- Belmont and Travers winner, beat Quality Road (Donn, Met Mile, Woodward)
Curlin- Classic winner, DWC winner, BC Classic winner, etc.

Wow. That's a lot of BC Classic winners coming out of that race. Combine that with the Woodward, which since 2001 produced subsequent BC Classic winners Tiznow, Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, and Curlin (again) and you account for a lot of BC Classics.

Perhaps the BC Classic should be a Grade 3, too?

Meanwhile, the Belmont Stakes is a North American Classic restricted to 3yos. It's purpose is to identify the top class horses from that year's 3yo crop. In that sense, it is not uncommon to see fields with several unheralded runners, lest you expect the majority of 2yo stakes winners around one-turn making it to the race. If the race does its job, then several good runners will come out of the race.

2015- aside from American Pharoah, Frosted, Keen Ice, and Madefromlucky all won major stakes subsequently
2014- aside from Tonalist, California Chrome, Commissioner, and Wicked Strong all won stakes
2013- aside from Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Overanalyze, Revolutionary, and Vyjack all won stakes
2012- Paynter, Dullahan, and Optimizer all won stakes
2011- Stay Thirsty, Shackleford, Brilliant Speed, Animal Kingdom, Mucho Macho Man all won stakes
2010- Drosselmeyer, First Dude, Game On Dude, all won major stakes

Now we're touting Ron the greek and tonalist. Ok buddy you're right. JCGC is the greatest race in the history of racing.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

Now we're touting Ron the greek and tonalist. Ok buddy you got it. JCGC is the greatest race in the history of racing.

I think you are confusing a champion and G1 winner. What was wrong with Ron the Greek? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Sunshine Millions, The Foster, and the Santa Anita Handicap along with numerous other G1 placings. Your standards must be through the roof.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by cj

I think you are confusing a champion and G1 winner. What was wrong with Ron the Greek? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Sunshine Millions, The Foster, and the Santa Anita Handicap along with numerous other G1 placings. Your standards must be through the roof.

Grade 1s aren't what they used to be, he was solid. I remember that Big Cap ,Insane pace meltdown. I'm just saying the last 6 or 7 JCGC winners aren't a great lot.

[Tom]

What races were any better?