Beyer on Dutrow, Wolfson, etc.

[ralph_the_cat]

For Mark, and the other guy that thinks Im Mullins-like,

mullins comment, I never said a bettor is an idiot, I said they havent a clue what the difference from trainer to trainer is like, not to mention the 1,000+ list of legal meds each trainer uses in their barn...

Mark, I never knew you were a Beyers fan,
Try and understand this, a young 3yo goes from Kathleens barn to Rick Dutrows, who, by the way, just won the KY derby and Preakness last year with the top 3yo in north america, and trained the talented Benny the Bull who destroyed most of the sprinters he faced this past year... and YOU and BEYER are surprised this horse pulled away to win by 2.5 lengths at GP?... running a 1:09.10? krist guys, The FILLIES RACE THE SAME DAY went in 1:10.55... we should be shocked Dutrows up and coming 3yo ran it in 1:09.10... ????? this thread acts like he ran it in 1:08 flat and won by 12 lengths with a thistle invader... the lead horse ran fast fractions while pressured and didnt have the kick at the end... typical race science.... OH, and then BEYERS gives the winning horse his career best of a 117... AND ALSO GIVES A CAREER BEST TO THE REST OF THE HORSES THAT HIT THE BOARD in the race... why did everyone run their career best??????? hmmm maybe the figures are off... the horse won by 2.5... The bigger debate should be how off Beyers numbers are, or how insane of a field it was for everyone to run 10+ figures higher than their career best...

-Im not looking to debate drugs-cheaters-etc... just this horse and this race with this trainer... I didnt post to stir anyone up, -the cheater card is being used where the "logic" card would fit...

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by mountainman

What surprizes me is the failure of more owners and trainers to speak out against illegal drugging. While players have come to resent form reversals and chalk barns that never lose, they are free to adjust and jump onboard. Honest outfits, on the other hand, are powerless at the hands of cheaters. Yet, with few exceptions, they continue to close ranks and protect their own. Illegal juicing is HORSEMEN hurting HORSEMEN.

That is a good point Mark and I find it to be true. I just read a post on another board from someone I know wins about 10% at best, and he seems to me to be a decently sharp horseperson. He was responding to "take care of your own business and mind your own backyard" with this:

You can take care of your own backyard all you want, but when your neighbour is taking care of his AND loading them up with EPO, synthetic pain meds, unlabelled bleeder meds, snail venom, snake venom etc..... all things being equal, you'll have trouble keeping up.

There's this prick around here who couldn't win a fixed race until last year. Then he had a heroin addict relative who was put on some sort of synthetic methadone. All of the sudden, his old cripples were earning. How do I know this.... this joker offered to sell some to my buddy and I in the backstretch and told us the story.

I was doing great until EPO came to prominence. It was the new big thing. Some guy offered to sell me some in the backstretch. Since then, he and his buddies have been doing pretty well.

You can't tell me that someone else's back yard doesn't have any bearing on my own success or lack thereof.

Very few people speak out like that in the training ranks I find. Maybe they are as frustrated as horseplayers in speaking up because they feel the hill is too high to climb?

[ralph_the_cat]

They test for EPO

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

They test for EPO

EPO is only testable in a 48 hour window after administration. I think it is given once every couple of weeks. If you don't hit them at a certain time, like hitting a tri with a 7-1 on top, you can not catch it. You'd have to have the IQ of a pencil to give it close to post time.

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by DeanT

EPO is only testable in a 48 hour window after administration. I think it is given once every couple of weeks. If you don't hit them at a certain time, like hitting a tri with a 7-1 on top, you can not catch it. You'd have to have the IQ of a pencil to give it close to post time.

you are talking about trainers here, what are their iqs?

thats why barns are called for random tests and walk thrus... trainers under discussion on this forum have received random EPO testing... but Im also not so sure its only a 48 hour window...

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

but Im also not so sure its only a 48 hour window...

However, the test for EPO detects use of the drug only within 48 hours, Maylin said, and only the top three finishers in a race are tested. But EPO is most effective when used well ahead of a competition, allowing a horse to reap the benefits but not test positive.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...ORTS/702180350

In cycling this past year:

But the testing has also moved to counter the new generation of drugs. EPO testing is now more precise and is able to pick up its use well beyond the former 48-hour limit

But I believe that is a very costly test and not available to racing.

There is no test for CERA apparently, which does the same thing.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

Try and understand this, a young 3yo goes from Kathleens barn to Rick Dutrows, who, by the way, just won the KY derby and Preakness last year with the top 3yo in north america, and trained the talented Benny the Bull who destroyed most of the sprinters he faced this past year... and YOU and BEYER are surprised this horse pulled away to win by 2.5 lengths at GP?... running a 1:09.10? krist guys, The FILLIES RACE THE SAME DAY went in 1:10.55... we should be shocked Dutrows up and coming 3yo ran it in 1:09.10...

The fact that you don't understand how remarkable it is that this newly turned 3YO, with very average speed figures just a few weeks prior, ran almost 1 1/2 seconds faster than the acomplished older filly and mare sprinters did just an hour later shows how confused you are about this entire situation.

[DrugS]

Ralph might struggle with something as simple and basic as that ... but he's pretty amusing and I consider myself a fan of his work.

Here's one of his more epic old posts....

You don't see to many fixed races at the big scale race tracks....but the little ones ...Oh my....I've been on both ends with horses I train...Every year there is less and less....The trainers rarely know about it...It's 99% jockeys....i've been on both ends this year!...Its one of those things that you deal with...Race Tracks like Mountaineer hide all of that...Just in the past 5 years there have been on track incidents where trainers have punched the shit out of jockeys, jockeys being banned...even murders...its sick and sad......and so much more you wouldn't believe....you would think Im full of shit If I told you some of the shit that goes on...Money=GREED=Money ......and Im sure some of you horsemen that post on here know what I mean...I tried getting a jockey banned for using a electrical shoking device this year...Race #10 is when the fixed races usually happen..because as soon as the winner gets his photo in the 10th race at Mountaineer the Lights shut off and the place closes!...Start watching mountaineers 10th race and their payoffs check out some of the best jockeys ride like apprentice riders....On purpose ...it's sad...there fixed several times a week....We as trainers dread the tenth....you got me all fired up now!.....Drugs....Oh Drugs....I'd say atleast 3 out of 10 horses that run at Mountaineer have an illegal substance in them...Certain drugs mask certain drugs...certain test are only given randomly....Did you ever think how much money it would really cost to test for every available drug?!!!!10 times a night not to mention spots checks!!!....It would take thousands a week!....no race track dishes that out at the small levels....Oh well....Now my blood pressures up!.....

He makes Mountaineer sound like the wild west.

[DrugS]

Originally Posted by slewis

BTW... Asmussen's babies from what I've been told are in SERIOUS training on a private farm with simulated races BEFORE they ever set foot on the track at Churchill in the spring, hence the success.

I've heard and read the same type of things.

Why do you think his horses struggle so bad on turf or synthetic tracks?

[DeanT]

Fantastic post Ralph, for the sheer entertainment value of seeing you get fired up. You sound like a horseplayer

LG,

At Woodbine I heard him or his assistant say that they "brought the wrong kind of horses up for the synthetic." Maybe he struggles with that part of the game. Just a hunch/tidbit.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

For Mark, and the other guy that thinks Im Mullins-like,

mullins comment, I never said a bettor is an idiot, I said they havent a clue what the difference from trainer to trainer is like, not to mention the 1,000+ list of legal meds each trainer uses in their barn...

Mark, I never knew you were a Beyers fan,
Try and understand this, a young 3yo goes from Kathleens barn to Rick Dutrows, who, by the way, just won the KY derby and Preakness last year with the top 3yo in north america, and trained the talented Benny the Bull who destroyed most of the sprinters he faced this past year... and YOU and BEYER are surprised this horse pulled away to win by 2.5 lengths at GP?... running a 1:09.10? krist guys, The FILLIES RACE THE SAME DAY went in 1:10.55... we should be shocked Dutrows up and coming 3yo ran it in 1:09.10... ????? this thread acts like he ran it in 1:08 flat and won by 12 lengths with a thistle invader... the lead horse ran fast fractions while pressured and didnt have the kick at the end... typical race science.... OH, and then BEYERS gives the winning horse his career best of a 117... AND ALSO GIVES A CAREER BEST TO THE REST OF THE HORSES THAT HIT THE BOARD in the race... why did everyone run their career best??????? hmmm maybe the figures are off... the horse won by 2.5... The bigger debate should be how off Beyers numbers are, or how insane of a field it was for everyone to run 10+ figures higher than their career best...

-Im not looking to debate drugs-cheaters-etc... just this horse and this race with this trainer... I didnt post to stir anyone up, -the cheater card is being used where the "logic" card would fit...

One thing suspicious about implausible training feats is the high incidence of bad tests that seem to accompany them. If hot barns and big form reversals are so innocent, then why is it so often possible to predict which stables will soon have a positive test? And I'm not referring strictly to supertrainers. Obscure outfits that catch fire for awhile fairly often have horses flunk the spitbox.

[lamboguy]

hey mark i think that epogen is the miracle drug these days, but i know that every state tests for it. some of these super trainers are accused of using the stuff. why wouldn't the test find it in the horse's system?

the other thing now is people are training from their farms, and some have the machines for shock treatments. they cost about $20k to own. its legal for a vet to administer the therapeudic shock treatment a week before a race. a guy on a farm can use it the day of the race especially night racing because lassix isn't until 5:00 pm. and the horse does not apear on the track before that time.

a good legitamate game is in most people's interest. taking these types of edges are not good for the game at all. you know that as well as i do.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

hey mark i think that epogen is the miracle drug these days, but i know that every state tests for it. some of these super trainers are accused of using the stuff. why wouldn't the test find it in the horse's system?

the other thing now is people are training from their farms, and some have the machines for shock treatments. they cost about $20k to own. its legal for a vet to administer the therapeudic shock treatment a week before a race. a guy on a farm can use it the day of the race especially night racing because lassix isn't until 5:00 pm. and the horse does not apear on the track before that time.

a good legitamate game is in most people's interest. taking these types of edges are not good for the game at all. you know that as well as i do.

Interesting post Phil. Sounds like you get the cutting-edge buzz.

[Stevie Belmont]

The Dutrow horses I have seen in person at the track have looked super. Diamond Stripes looked the best the night he won the Meadowlands Cup. Arson Sqaud looked great before winning the Meadowlands Cup. Benny The Bull looked super before the Woody Stephens on Belmont Day. Oprah Winney before the Ladies Secret at Monmouth looked great. Big Brown before the Monmouth Stakes looked fantastic. All had Healthy, shiny coats, were relaxed and on their toes.

The diet, physical issues, training methods and surroundings are all variables that can affect a horse’s performance and development. I think Dutrows’s feed is top quality stuff, not all trainers feed their horses with the same stuff. He will have all his horses checked out well to see if there are any hidden issues.

All of these things can attribute to a horses turn a round.

I think his horsemanship is disregarded all too often. He has been around horses his whole life. Father was a successful trainer for years and his brother, successful as well. He certainly takes good care of his horses and a happy horse will usually do better than a not so happy horse.

The turn a round is not as shocking as some may think.

[Dahoss9698]

Well, I know I've changed my mind now.