Beyer on Dutrow, Wolfson, etc.

[cj]

But after a gelding named This Ones for Phil scored a remarkable victory Saturday at Gulfstream Park, many fans - or at least the cynical ones - had a different reaction. This Ones for Phil epitomized what is wrong with the modern American racing game.

Not only was the performance extraordinary, but so, too, was the degree of improvement by This Ones for Phil. In his eight starts for O'Connell, the gelding had never earned a figure higher than 81. Dutrow had managed to improve his form by nearly 15 lengths.

Such distrust has corroded the very foundation of the sport. Honest owners are reluctant to invest in the game when they believe they can't compete with the cheaters. Many bettors have lost enthusiasm because the art of handicapping has become an exercise in guessing who has the best "juice." The public at large is alienated when it suspects that drugs are tainting the sport's greatest events. This is what happened in last year's Triple Crown series, and it could happen again in 2009.

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

PA...What say you? Hay and water?

[Imriledup]

The problem is that in order to punish someone either financially or with supension, you need a physical test to say that the horse ran with something illegal.

Racing needs to adopt new rules to punish 'form reversal' offenders even if they don't find a banned substance in the animal's system.

We all know that there are drugs that can mask other drugs...so, a 'clean' test on a form reversal runner doesn't hold a heck of a lot of water as far as the exploited fans go.

We also need to make sure we don't punish a trainer for 'moving up' a runner that was just trained by someone incompetent. The move up trainer shouldn't be punished because the first person didn't know how to put a bridle on a horse.

In this day and age, the skill of the current training crop is, on the whole, extremely good. Most trainers have the ability to use current technology and a qualified vet. There are very few trainers out there who are SO incompetent that another trainer will just move their horse up 15 lengths overnight.

There might need to be retrospective punishments. If this Dutrow horse in question goes on to consistently run Beyer figs in the 100s and turns into a top horse, than this was obviously the case of a top horse who just underachieved in a bad barn.

But, if this one reversal turns out to be a one hit wonder and the horse then goes back to his previous races and never duplicates that 'explosion' than someone can go back months later and finger that one race and issue a punishment.

Lots to think about, lots to discuss.

[joanied]

I just read the story...and yes, it seems incredible, but certainly not impossible for this horse to improove so much, without being drugged. Let's not jump to conclusions...maybe wait to see if he holds form and wins again in such a fashion...with the eyes of everyone watching, would Dutrow be stupid enough to drug this horse...regardless of what some may think of Dutrow...I don't think he'd take a chance like that now.
From my experience at Belmont Park, I worked for some trainers (no names) that had some very good horses but just couldn't win with them...for any variety of reasons, they simply were not good trainers...and that was back in the day when it was hay, oats and water.

Let's give Dutrow the benefit of the doubt...and now, I am awaiting the bashing I'm gonna get

[Dahoss9698]

I agree Joanied. If there is anyone who deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Dutrow.

As we all know, he's been the poster child for clean training right? How many suspensions has he had?

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by cj

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

PA...What say you? Hay and water?

no question about it. to quote one of my key ex-owners who quit rather than participate, "stevie wonder and ray charles could see whats goin on !"

the stats for "super trainers" are impossible to achieve without some sort of edge.

ideal candidates are horses with ability who are off form for various reasons. it's not rocket science, you just need the "tools" to "fix" the malady.

assuming the horse has talent,
1. painkillers to lessen discomfort
2. bronciodialators to enhance breathing
3. bloodbuilders to increase red cell count to carry oxygen
4. steroids to maximize mass and strength
5. cardiac stimulant to increase blood flow
6. diuretic to decrease blood preassure and minimize bleeding
7. milk shake to retard buid up of lactic acid the fatigue factor in the muscle system

if a trainer supplies proper nutrition and conditioning and has one or all of the above at his disposal which will pass the post race test, he or she becomes a "super trainer" and dominates in a manner the "sport" has never experienced before.

by the way, its not only horseracing but a reflection of our "improving" win at all cost society.

horseracing has gone from whitney, vanderbuilt, and mellon to gill, bone and iavarone. draw your own conclusions.

[Imriledup]

horseracing has gone from whitney, vanderbuilt, and mellon to gill, bone and iavarone. draw your own conclusions.[/QUOTE]


Chilling.

[BIG49010]

It's racing own fault, they keep increasing the purses, which intices the cheaters to look for an edge. Cut the purses by 50%, and the cheaters won't be able to afford to pay the vets.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Imriledup

horseracing has gone from whitney, vanderbuilt, and mellon to gill, bone and iavarone. draw your own conclusions.

Chilling.[/QUOTE]

You make a good point. You're right, the gentlemen who ruled the Sport of Kings back in the day were elite socialites who bred and raced horses for the sport of it, not for the money. These owners who give their horses to trainers that have had multiple positives, as Dutrow has, are not sportsmen, they're businessmen, and they only care about making more money, nothing else matters. You can add J. Paul Reddam (Cash Call) to the list of owners.

[slew101]

Beyer once again comes across as nothing but a sore loser. That was a weak-ass race, which you often get in these restricted big-money races. Look at the 6-5 favorite? Beaten 6 lengths in his last start at even-money.

Gulfstream has always been a crazy track form wise. Horses who run lights out there can't run a lick anywhere else. Look at Any Limit, the Allen Jerkens horse. On Gulfstream, he's a graded stakes winner. Off it, he can't hit the board. Is anyone accusing Jerkens of juicing his horse?

[The Bit]

Originally Posted by slew101

Beyer once again comes across as nothing but a sore loser. That was a weak-ass race, which you often get in these restricted big-money races. Look at the 6-5 favorite? Beaten 6 lengths in his last start at even-money.

Gulfstream has always been a crazy track form wise. Horses who run lights out there can't run a lick anywhere else. Look at Any Limit, the Allen Jerkens horse. On Gulfstream, he's a graded stakes winner. Off it, he can't hit the board. Is anyone accusing Jerkens of juicing his horse?

You must be a Dutrow?

[ryesteve]

Originally Posted by Imriledup

Racing needs to adopt new rules to punish 'form reversal' offenders even if they don't find a banned substance in the animal's system.

"Guilty until proven innocent" isn't going to be a popular battle cry, and it's completely unnecessary when there are plenty of people who ARE caught who just get slaps on the wrists. Let's start with doling out significant punishments before we widen the net to include any trainer who had a horse run a race that didn't figure.

[LottaKash]

Given Dutrow's incredible record with drugs, and his fiasco with the Steroid- wonder-horse Big Brown, I will err on the side of "Scumbag"....Once a cheater always a cheater.....Why would anyone think that he or people of his ilk would ever change......The Belmont swung the deal for me.....stinko.....

best,

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by slew101

Beyer once again comes across as nothing but a sore loser. That was a weak-ass race, which you often get in these restricted big-money races. Look at the 6-5 favorite? Beaten 6 lengths in his last start at even-money.

Gulfstream has always been a crazy track form wise. Horses who run lights out there can't run a lick anywhere else. Look at Any Limit, the Allen Jerkens horse. On Gulfstream, he's a graded stakes winner. Off it, he can't hit the board. Is anyone accusing Jerkens of juicing his horse?

Ditto, hes been writing more and more crap like this... GROSS... I guess hes not a history buff in racing... this has only been going on "recently" says the experts... I woulda loved to have heard what the "beyers" of the world were saying when slew ran those freakish first fractions, when Man O War ran huge every race... krist, when seabiscuit nearly broke down and came back to run his best race at what, age 7 or 8?... and what was that super horse that started out a claimer back in the day... considered one of the best claimers before our time, forget his name, but he went on to win a couple graded stakes, the name will come to me... losers have been crying "cheater" since the beginning of man...

[HUSKER55]

If you read "Beyer On Speed" he says that his rating can vary by 20 points from track to track and race to race. My problem is that the horse is running about 12 lengths faster than his last outing, considering the way he weighs time. I think that the trainer must be really, really good. That rating is twice what Beyer says is his swing rate is.

His technique must be a guarded secret. Maybe it is the horses diet and exercise program.

Does anyone know for sure if the track runs post race tests on the horses and if so are the results posted?

Thanks for the info.

husker55

[cj]

Originally Posted by slew101

Beyer once again comes across as nothing but a sore loser. That was a weak-ass race, which you often get in these restricted big-money races. Look at the 6-5 favorite? Beaten 6 lengths in his last start at even-money.

Gulfstream has always been a crazy track form wise. Horses who run lights out there can't run a lick anywhere else. Look at Any Limit, the Allen Jerkens horse. On Gulfstream, he's a graded stakes winner. Off it, he can't hit the board. Is anyone accusing Jerkens of juicing his horse?

Where in the article does Beyer say he bet? He probably bet on the Dutrow if I had to guess. That doesn't mean as somebody that likes the sport he can't speak against someone who is very likely cheating and bad for the game.

Anyone comparing Jerkens to Dutrow needs to have his head examined.