Free will is an illusion

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's debatable whether or not the Christian is in "love" with Jesus's divinity. To me...it looks more like a "business arrangement". The Christian professes his "love" for Jesus, with the hope that Jesus will eventually reciprocate by rewarding him with the "Heavenly Life".

Hardly the stuff that true "love" is made of...IMO.

That is all backwards. Here's how it really works:

1 John 4:10, 19
10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins...19 We love because he first loved us
NIV

The Christians' great Hope, therefore, is God's unfailing, enduring love for them -- a love that He demonstrated for them at the Cross of Christ (Rom 5:8) It is God's unfathomable love for them that guarantees that He will complete the good work [of salvation] He started in them (Phil 1:6).

It's, therefore, impossible for God to reciprocate his love, since the very act of salvation was an active demonstration of his love for all those for whom Christ died. It is the God-fearing Christian who reciprocates God's love all the days of his life. This is why your premise is backwards. It implies that the Christian starts the wheels of salvation to turn; whereas in reality, it is God who initiates the gracious work of salvation in the souls of all His elect.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I remain unconvinced. IMO...if the "celestial harem" form of the Heavenly Life didn't exist in the Christian mind...then Christianity wouldn't be a tenth as "popular" as it now is.

I think the consensus view would be one of some abstract "happiness", but also undoubtedly the presence of God/Christ. I don't find much more than abstract conceptions of the inner life of the Trinity in non-Catholic or non-Orthodox circles. The reason may be that these traditions embrace "theosis", or "divinization/deification" as the description of the effects of grace, something most Protestant traditions rejected until recently.

My main comment on the whole thread is whether anyone else finds Harris' resorting to the common sense experience of the world in the last 10 minutes of the podcast humorous. My post # 20.

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by Light

Where do I say my relationship with the Divine is better than anyone's?

When you said your REAL relationship to the Divine is foreign to someone else, that's when.

Don't get mad because you got called on some bullshit. Your "REAL" relationship to the Divine should place you above that. I understand, though, your Pride may get in the way of that.

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's debatable whether or not the Christian is in "love" with Jesus's divinity. To me...it looks more like a "business arrangement". The Christian professes his "love" for Jesus, with the hope that Jesus will eventually reciprocate by rewarding him with the "Heavenly Life".

Hardly the stuff that true "love" is made of...IMO.

That's not the relationship I have with Jesus or God. My relationship with them is intrinsic to who I am, they are my source. I do not kiss God's ass or Jesus's ass for Heaven or to save me from Hell. Neither would they want me pandering to them because that is pure b.s and they can see that better than anybody. That is fear,not love.

I love them in the here and now because of what they have shown me HERE in this life. They have touched my heart in a way no human can. Heaven is within or nowhere be it on Earth or Heaven.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Elkchester Road

When you said your REAL relationship to the Divine is foreign to someone else, that's when.

Don't get mad because you got called on some bullshit. Your "REAL" relationship to the Divine should place you above that. I understand, though, your Pride may get in the way of that.

But I never said that I am better or my experience is better than anyone else's. That's is your assertion.

Humor me for 1 second. Even if my experience of God is real and others are fake, do you think I could convert them to experience what i experience with God? How long would that take? It may take lifetimes. And besides that's not my business, that's between individuals and God.

And even if I am more advanced spiritually than others, that does not make me superior to anyone else. Why? because God dwells in everyone and to disrespect another is to disrespect myself and God. That is not just a philosophy but a reality.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

That's not the relationship I have with Jesus or God. My relationship with them is intrinsic to who I am, they are my source. I do not kiss God's ass or Jesus's ass for Heaven or to save me from Hell. Neither would they want me pandering to them because that is pure b.s and they can see that better than anybody. That is fear,not love.

I love them in the here and now because of what they have shown me HERE in this life. They have touched my heart in a way no human can. Heaven is within or nowhere be it on Earth or Heaven.

God only loves those who fear him (i.e. fear in the biblical sense of awe, wonderment, honor, respect, etc.)

God loves only those who fear Him (Ps 103:11). He has compassion on those who fear him (Ps 103:13). He provides for those who fear Him (Ps 115:5). His salvation is near to those who fear Him (Ps 85:9). The Lord confides in those who fear Him (Ps 25:14). The Lord fulfills the desires of those who fear Him (Ps 145:19). The Lord protects those who fear Him (Ps 34:7).

Since God has very obviously not inspred you to fear Him -- since He has not inclined your heart to fear him -- you can be certain he does not have your best intrerest at heart, regardelss of what you subjectively feel.

Jer 32:39-41
39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me , so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.
NIV

[Elkchester Road]

Originally Posted by Light

But I never said that I am better or my experience is better than anyone else's. That's is your assertion.

Humor me for 1 second. Even if my experience of God is real and others are fake, do you think I could convert them to experience what i experience with God? How long would that take? It may take lifetimes. And besides that's not my business, that's between individuals and God.

And even if I am more advanced spiritually than others, that does not make me superior to anyone else. Why? because God dwells in everyone and to disrespect another is to disrespect myself and God. That is not just a philosophy but a reality.

Every time you post about anything Religious it becomes a matter of your interpretations/experiences being right and someone else's (boxcar) being wrong. You aren't "better"...yeah, right.

I am not interested in "humoring you for 1 second". I understand you think I should be. Not happening. These matters are way back in the Rear View for me. People like you are the reason why.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God only loves those who fear him (i.e. fear in the biblical sense of awe, wonderment, honor, respect, etc.)

Even though you are aware of the original meaning of "fear God" (in parenthesis), you seem to default to the literal sense of "fear God" when you use that term.

By me saying "I love God" and "do not fear him", should not be a conflict of interest in your Christian teachings. The end result is better because when you love someone, you respect them more than respect. You glorify them more than glory, You listen to them more attentively.etc.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Elkchester Road

Every time you post about anything Religious it becomes a matter of your interpretations/experiences being right and someone else's (boxcar) being wrong. You aren't "better"...yeah, right.

I am not interested in "humoring you for 1 second". I understand you think I should be. Not happening. These matters are way back in the Rear View for me. People like you are the reason why.

And you? You are right but I am wrong? You are doing to me what you think I am doing to you.

Believe what you want, but I am entitled to my opinion just as you are.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Even though you are aware of the original meaning of "fear God" (in parenthesis), you seem to default to the literal sense of "fear God" when you use that term.

By me saying "I love God" and "do not fear him", should not be a conflict of interest in your Christian teachings. The end result is better because when you love someone, you respect them more than respect. You glorify them more than glory, You listen to them more attentively.etc.

I have no teachings, save those for the Word of God.

The point to the texts I cited and quoted is that God loves only those who fear him, which certainly conflicts with your Santa Claus view of him and his supposed unconditional love for all.

And when you confess that you have no fear of God, this betrays your true spiritual state because God supernaturally instills the fear of Himself (through the agency of the Holy Spirit) into all the people with whom he sovereignly and graciously has chosen to enter into a personal covenant relationship.

The whole point to my last post, which seems to have totally eluded you, is that God acts graciously, mercifully and lovingly only toward those who fear him.

While you say that "You listen to them more attentively, etc." by loving them, I find this to be a rather strange statement coming from you, since you believe virtually nothing your "best friend" taught. For example, would you not in your heart of hearts recoil at this statement that Jesus made:

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you BECAUSE you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.?
NIV

The "because" in the above text qualifies God's love for Christ's disciples, totally demolishing any idea that the nature of God's love is unconditional. Therefore, whatever it is you think you feel for Christ, it certainly isn't biblical love.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The point to the texts I cited and quoted is that God loves only those who fear him, which certainly conflicts with your Santa Claus view of him and his supposed unconditional love for all.

You are 100% wrong with thousands of NDE evidence all contradicting that statement.

Originally Posted by boxcar

The whole point to my last post, which seems to have totally eluded you, is that God acts graciously, mercifully and lovingly only toward those who fear him.

No, your stupidity does not elude me.

Originally Posted by boxcar

For example, would you not in your heart of hearts recoil at this statement that Jesus made:

John 16:27
27 No, the Father himself loves you BECAUSE you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.?
NIV

The "because" in the above text qualifies God's love for Christ's disciples, totally demolishing any idea that the nature of God's love is unconditional. Therefore, whatever it is you think you feel for Christ, it certainly isn't biblical love.

No. It is NOT saying that "because" one loves Jesus is the reason God loves you. That is your superficial understanding.

Let me enlighten you.

God flows through Jesus as much as possible while still retaining two separate entities.

Therefore when one loves Jesus,it is AUTOMATIC that they love God because Jesus is one with God's ENERGY. There is NO DIFFERENCE between God and Jesus's ENERGY.

So of course if you love Jesus, you love God as well. Same energy. It has nothing to do with a "because" you are a "good Christian". It's "because" its the same energy of divine Love.

You think God is saying with a southern accent "well by golly,they love my son so they must be alright. Yep, I think I'll give em some love.Says right there in the Bible I'm supposed to do that."

YeeHaa!!! Give me a break.

As if God doesn't know everything about you from the moment you are born to the moment you die. As if he doesn't know every decision you will make.

God does not need one to "impress him". "Oh God, look how much I love you". Ha!

God does not need us to love him. His plan for us may be to be an atheist. To be what you least expect. If you were born in another country, your self identity would be totally different than now.

You are a prisoner of your own beliefs.

If you want to be with God here, you have to let go of your beliefs,your identity your attachments and all that you think you know of yourself. You have to stop your internal dialog of your reality. In other words,you have to "let go and let God" and go within, quietly. Suspend your thoughts. God said "Be still and know I am God".

If you meditate in this way, God will manifest within with his love. He has for me. When you experience his love, you'll know it's his because there is no earthly love like that. That it is Heaven and you will naturally love him with all your heart. You'll know that Divine love is your highest experience in life and is all you need. It's what you've been looking for all your life. Your relationship with God will be real and active in your heart from then on.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You are 100% wrong with thousands of NDE evidence all contradicting that statement.



No, your stupidity does not elude me.



No. It is NOT saying that "because" one loves Jesus is the reason God loves you. That is your superficial understanding.

Let me enlighten you.

God flows through Jesus as much as possible while still retaining two separate entities.

Therefore when one loves Jesus,it is AUTOMATIC that they love God because Jesus is one with God's ENERGY. There is NO DIFFERENCE between God and Jesus's ENERGY.

Learn to read. The text in John 16 has NOTHING to do about the disciples loving God. It's talking about God's love for the disciples and WHY He loves Jesus' disciples. The text plainly says that God loves Jesus' disciples because they loved Jesus AND believed that Jesus came from God. This is crystal clear example of what a qualified statement looks like. And the entire bible is loaded with these kinds of statements about God's love. Jesus did not say to his disciples that his Father loved him because this is what the Father does. Nor did Jesus tell his disciples that the Father loves them because this is who He is. Instead, Jesus provided two concrete reasons for why the Father loves the disciples.

A little child could easily understand Jn 16:27, yet you cannot! You cannot because you have made up your mind that the god you have created in your image is far superior to the God who has revealed himself in the scriptures. You're just another run-of-the-mill, boring, ho-hum , hell-bound, pagan idolater who has erected this image in your darkened mind that you worship every day. And unless you repent of your idolatry, you will spend eternity in hell -- per scripture -- and per your "best friend".

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How does "free will" absolve us from moral culpability or responsibility? Just because we have the ability to make choices does not relieve us of our responsibility to obey the laws of our land, as an example.

I chose to live in the area I reside. If I don’t like their laws I would not live here. I did not choose to be born nor did I promise anybody to have this “moral culpability/responsibility” you mentioned. This was something that was thrust upon me without my approval. God created me and threw me into a terrible world(“Isaiah 45: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things”) and issued these ten commandments, the first of which is to love Him. And apparently it eases His conscious that He gave us free will — like that’s supposed to make up for the lousy deal we got since it’s not really free.

You probably realize by now that I’m playing the devil’s advocate here— pointing out a vulnerability to Christian thought, and any religion or person who believes in a loving and caring God that has given us free will.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Redboard

I chose to live in the area I reside. If I don’t like their laws I would not live here. I did not choose to be born nor did I promise anybody to have this “moral culpability/responsibility” you mentioned. This was something that was thrust upon me without my approval. God created me and threw me into a terrible world(“Isaiah 45: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things”) and issued these ten commandments, the first of which is to love Him. And apparently it eases His conscious that He gave us free will — like that’s supposed to make up for the lousy deal we got since it’s not really free.

You probably realize by now that I’m playing the devil’s advocate here— pointing out a vulnerability to Christian thought, and any religion or person who believes in a loving and caring God that has given us free will.

You don't have to promise anything to anyone. It comes with the territory of you (and the rest of us) being a created being and God being the Creator. Or to borrow a biblical metaphor -- God being the Potter and we being the clay pots.

Christianity is most assuredly not "vulnerable" to your premise. In fact, God proved his love for mankind by creating us in his image, which means among other things, that he has endowed us with reason, conscience and free will. To truly love someone, for example, requires that that love be given freely.

[Dave Schwartz]

What if you are wrong about your core beliefs?

<< spoken to no one in particular >>