You are mentoring a promising beginner...

[therussmeister]

Originally Posted by TurfRuler

I did not mean divide money as services rendered. I am trying to find out if you are the mentor and teaching your mentee how to make selections in all types of bets, then the money that you and the mentee bets on a race (say a pick four) then how would you divide the winnings if it were a signer?

I would never comingle wagers with someone I mentored. We would talk about each race, but when it came time to bet we would each go our own way. He bets his ticket and I bet mine, even though we might often have our bets structured the same, the only difference being bets sizes due to different bankrolls.

I wouldn't even tell him precisely how to bet each race, but rather discuss different options and the various strengths and weaknesses of each option and let him decide based on his tolerance for risk and other such factors.

But it's a moot point since I wouldn't mentor anyone, convinced I would suck at it.

[TurfRuler]

therussmeister

Thank you for an answer I was looking for.

[MightBeSosa]

The stock and commodities market is riddled and infested with mentors of all shapes and sizes. Hundreds, if not more. Most are next to worthless. I guess if you knew nothing, you might benefit some from the basics.

Racing has few, though the Sartin crew and others like it might qualify.

James Selvidge many years ago was into that as well.

[Capper Al]

Originally Posted by RichieP

"Thask"
I.M.H.O with you as the mentor the much more important question is the one you ask of YOURSELF:
What about this person is special enough to make me consider sacrificing my time,energy,personal space and knowledge to help him or her. Simple as that man.

In 2006 I was Blessed to be mentored both in racing and more importantly in life by one of the most legendary figures in racing in the last 30 years. He gave me 2 years of nightly sessions with him until he passed away. He took nothing from me monetarily and the ONLY thing he asked of me was focused quiet time when we spoke nightly.

Why did he help me? Well first because I asked him but as he told me later on he had "interviewed" me on the phone twice for several hours before committing to speak with me.

He said there was a "connection" he felt with me and knew I spoke the truth. He relied heavily on intuition which seems so out of fashion in today's world of high speed computers, databases etc.

If you have found that special someone you connect with then they will be very lucky as I read your posts and know you are the real day and an honorable man to boot.

The very best vibes to you and your family
Richie

Good story, and I agree that the human connection has to be there. Also what came to mind when you quoted Thaskalot was one needs the same type of player as a mentor. For instance, a paper and pencil mentor wouldn't work (in general) with a software capper.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by RichieP

"Thask"
I.M.H.O with you as the mentor the much more important question is the one you ask of YOURSELF:
What about this person is special enough to make me consider sacrificing my time,energy,personal space and knowledge to help him or her. Simple as that man.

In 2006 I was Blessed to be mentored both in racing and more importantly in life by one of the most legendary figures in racing in the last 30 years. He gave me 2 years of nightly sessions with him until he passed away. He took nothing from me monetarily and the ONLY thing he asked of me was focused quiet time when we spoke nightly.

Why did he help me? Well first because I asked him but as he told me later on he had "interviewed" me on the phone twice for several hours before committing to speak with me.

He said there was a "connection" he felt with me and knew I spoke the truth. He relied heavily on intuition which seems so out of fashion in today's world of high speed computers, databases etc.

If you have found that special someone you connect with then they will be very lucky as I read your posts and know you are the real day and an honorable man to boot.

The very best vibes to you and your family
Richie

Thank you Richie...and my best wishes go out to you and your family as well.

Like you, I too had a mentor (of sorts)...who I give credit to for my advancement in the game. He didn't sit me down daily and teach me many things...but he showed me, BY EXAMPLE, how a serious, mature player handles himself in the chaotic environment of the racetrack.

I wasn't sure if beating this game consistently was even possible until I met him...and I gave little thought to the "inner" aspect of serious gambling. He didn't tell me everything, but he pointed out to me the way to the really important things -- mainly in player psychology...and saved me much time, effort, and pain, by doing so.

It's been years now...and I remain grateful.

[hoovesupsideyourhe]

[QUOTE=DeltaLover]I am under the impression that learning from mistakes will not take someone very far while trying to master any domain including science, craft, art or anything else.

that sums it up ace..your impression is wrong.

[traynor]

[QUOTE=hoovesupsideyourhe]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

I am under the impression that learning from mistakes will not take someone very far while trying to master any domain including science, craft, art or anything else.

that sums it up ace..your impression is wrong.

The best approach to learning is often that formalized as a process called "sensemaking." Do something. If it works, do it again, always looking for ways to make it work better. If it doesn't work, go back to the "do something" stage and try again. "Gamblers" may fail to grasp the motivation, but it is quite clear, and very, very strong. I HATE to lose! I would walk away and never look at another horse race in my lifetime if it were not profitable.

Learning from one's mistakes is the only rational option. The alternative--as a number have pointed out--is that "insanity" thing of doing the same old same old while expecting different outcomes. In NLP terms, "If what you are doing isn't working, change it."

[traynor]

Originally Posted by MightBeSosa

The stock and commodities market is riddled and infested with mentors of all shapes and sizes. Hundreds, if not more. Most are next to worthless. I guess if you knew nothing, you might benefit some from the basics.

Racing has few, though the Sartin crew and others like it might qualify.

James Selvidge many years ago was into that as well.

Selvidge had a great idea when he tried to set up the network of "observers" to note specific, graded details of horse behavior and appearance. He developed a neat system that is similar to the "coding" methods used to parse speech communication (among other things). A shame that so many of the horse "players" lost interest when they discovered it would take work, rather than simply doing what they had always done (while losing).

BTW, the 2nd best video tutorial (IMO) on observational handicapping of horse appearance and behavior was made by Selvidge's wife--Trillis Parker.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by raybo

Who mentioned monetary payment for mentoring? If I were going to get paid, real money, for mentoring, then my criteria for taking on a student could be far less severe, probably. One would have to be very discriminating regarding who they chose as a mentor, in such a case. Just as there are authors who sell their wares containing very little substance, there would also be mentors doing the same thing. Buyer beware.

Just to clarify, it wasn't flat payment, it was how winnings would be divided. Sort of like a tuition, or at least that's how I read what we were talking about.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Just to clarify, it wasn't flat payment, it was how winnings would be divided. Sort of like a tuition, or at least that's how I read what we were talking about.

It is always wise to consider what the underlying motives of the mentor might be. There may be factors at work that go way beyond (and way deeper) than "being helpful."

The mentoring process is highly developed in both business and academia, and filled with the same pitfalls and traps there as elsewhere.

In horse racing, it is questionable if anyone who feels the need for mentoring is basically suited to serious wagering. A willingness to learn from others is essential, but the entire process of mentoring may be unsuitable in an endeavor that requires such large amounts of self-sufficiency and self-reliance to be successful.

[Dave Schwartz]

In horse racing, it is questionable if anyone who feels the need for mentoring is basically suited to serious wagering. A willingness to learn from others is essential, but the entire process of mentoring may be unsuitable in an endeavor that requires such large amounts of self-sufficiency and self-reliance to be successful.

I could not disagree more.

While I certainly agree that the traits you mentioned are definite must-haves, I would suggest that those are traits that are not present from birth. It would be my opinion that those principles can be learned and, therefore, (logic would dictate) that they can be taught.

Obviously some people will be more (or less) suited to development (just as others will be more (or less) suitable for teaching).

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

I could not disagree more.

While I certainly agree that the traits you mentioned are definite must-haves, I would suggest that those are traits that are not present from birth. It would be my opinion that those principles can be learned and, therefore, (logic would dictate) that they can be taught.

Obviously some people will be more (or less) suited to development (just as others will be more (or less) suitable for teaching).

One of the most widely-accepted concepts in developmental psychology is that basic personality traits are formed much earlier than people seem to believe in general. Self-efficacy can be slightly improved with appropriate training, but the underlying behavioral patterns are more associated with locus of control than self-efficacy. That is, the internal locus of control tends to facilitate self-efficacy, while the external locus of control tends to diminish or extinguish it.

The locus of control, in turn, is formed very early. All of which is to say that I did not make a frivolous or spurious comment of subjective opinion about mentoring. The mindset that seeks mentoring tends to accept an external locus of control as "reality." Mentoring then becomes a diluted form of co-dependency, with the mentor and those mentored fulfilling needs in each other that go way beyond figuring out who is going to win the seventh race at Santa Anita.

[turninforhome10]

Originally Posted by traynor

One of the most widely-accepted concepts in developmental psychology is that basic personality traits are formed much earlier than people seem to believe in general. Self-efficacy can be slightly improved with appropriate training, but the underlying behavioral patterns are more associated with locus of control than self-efficacy. That is, the internal locus of control tends to facilitate self-efficacy, while the external locus of control tends to diminish or extinguish it.

The locus of control, in turn, is formed very early. All of which is to say that I did not make a frivolous or spurious comment of subjective opinion about mentoring. The mindset that seeks mentoring tends to accept an external locus of control as "reality." Mentoring then becomes a diluted form of co-dependency, with the mentor and those mentored fulfilling needs in each other that go way beyond figuring out who is going to win the seventh race at Santa Anita.

As someone who wishes that the gambling bug would have never bitten.
I would point to learning to gamble at an age that confused the formation of those traits that would form a locus of control conducive to being a young gambler. Not until getting older and learning the art of "Parent Speak" did I start to turn it around. I got the idea from an old Doc Satrin workbook. The idea is on page 10-12.
http://www.sartinmethodology.com/lib...day_Wkbk_3.pdf. (Courtesy of Pace N Cap)
The hardest part for me, was that I grew up in a family that gambled every weekend. I learned poker at 7, taught the neighbor kids a game called 31 and took their money. My brother who much older was a renowned railroad pool hustler. He would get us kids to do chores and then ask if we wanted the money or play him chess double or nothing. When we got good enough to beat him, he would not plays us anymore. We all became very top chess players in High School. Point is we never learned gambling under the guidance of someone that was willing to go the whole way and we learned way to young that it was ok, IMHO. It is not just about the play, but it is about having the self respect inside. The ability to have that little voice that keeps you as the captain of your ship and not becoming the victim. That triangle that Doc talks about is what hit me like a nail in the head. Having a mentor is only as good as the mentor that you speak to yourself with. Also would love to hear Thaskalos take on if the Socratic Method would be appropriate for the dialogue between student and teacher.

[baconswitchfarm]

We now have 15 pages on this topic with good debate. Can someone now tell me what possible benefit I could gain by taking on someone to mentor ? I don't see any positive for the mentor .

[raybo]

Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm

We now have 15 pages on this topic with good debate. Can someone now tell me what possible benefit I could gain by taking on someone to mentor ? I don't see any positive for the mentor .

If you are successful, as a mentor, the positive is that you helped someone else become successful.