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12-03-2020, 11:14 AM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Below, a video message from the TIF's Wagering & Integrity Issues Steering Committee.
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12-03-2020, 01:28 PM
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#2
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,909
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Excellent.
How about we start with CHEATERS WHO GET CAUGHT WILL START WITH A 5-YEAR BAN?
What? The industry couldn't do that because some stars will disappear?
Don't worry. We'll make more.
And with a policy like that in place, little by little the game will get real integrity.
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12-03-2020, 03:50 PM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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When he was going through his ‘we want’ rant, there should have been a 'we want to throw another useless acronym into the alphabet soup that is American horse racing’
2:1 is going to pay 2:1 regardless if takeout is 0% vs 99%. I’m sorry that you make bad bets and can’t beat the mutuel pools.
I’m still waiting for an acknowledgment from one of these organizations that the purpose of takeout is to maximize the amount taken from a pool without seeing diminishing returns. Reducing takeout isn’t going to change the price of a horse going off at 2:1, it’s going to have the effect of negatively impacting racing’s invested customers
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12-03-2020, 04:02 PM
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#4
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
When he was going through his ‘we want’ rant, there should have been a 'we want to throw another useless acronym into the alphabet soup that is American horse racing’
2:1 is going to pay 2:1 regardless if takeout is 0% vs 99%. I’m sorry that you make bad bets and can’t beat the mutuel pools.
I’m still waiting for an acknowledgment from one of these organizations that the purpose of takeout is to maximize the amount taken from a pool without seeing diminishing returns. Reducing takeout isn’t going to change the price of a horse going off at 2:1, it’s going to have the effect of negatively impacting racing’s invested customers
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So, therefore, if the takeout was (say) 60% the game would still be fine?
Wouldn't make any difference at all?
Game would still be exactly the same in terms of difficulty to beat?
And, were the takeout reduced to (say) 2%, it would not make the game easier to beat?
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12-03-2020, 04:04 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,749
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Takeout or larger rebates is my number one issue, field size is 2nd. I can actually adjust for the drug cheates.
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12-03-2020, 05:39 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
So, therefore, if the takeout was (say) 60% the game would still be fine?
Wouldn't make any difference at all?
Game would still be exactly the same in terms of difficulty to beat?
And, were the takeout reduced to (say) 2%, it would not make the game easier to beat?
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60% would be in the area of diminishing returns, but I defer to those that make money off those pools to decide what the optimal takeout is and with 10,000 races run a year across a myriad of markets at all hours of the day, we don’t even have to take a random sample to perform the BTL and ATL testing though I think that Canterbury demonstrated via its below the line test a few years ago that lowering takeout hurt the customers it depends on to actually put on the show. That should have been enough to put an end to whiny customers and takeout, maybe they’re hoping that time forgot that Canterbury’s handle didn’t show enough of a gain to justify lowering takeout
If we reduced takeout to 2%, the odds on the lower priced horses would stay the same and where you would see a variation is is on each side of the inverse belle curve when a 60:1 hits the board that used to be 55:1 because we are all guessing on the likelihood (underlay vs overlay) of a horse like that winning. They also, as has been demonstrated for over a century (forgive me if I can’t remember what year it was when the guy in Pittsburgh created past performances), are the least likely to win meaning that lowering the takeout would have the following effects:
- Reduce purse accounts
- Reduce wagering opportunities as owners need to run at a purse level to rationalize the cost of the horse
- Reduce purchase prices of bloodstock due to the first two points
- Not put a single extra cent in the overwhelming majority of bettors’ pockets
So, if you want to have less owners, less trainers, less racing opportunities, less breeding programs, etc., jump on board the alphabet soup train with the conductor that can’t even be bothered to comb his hair let alone articulate anything that I just did
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12-03-2020, 05:56 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
When he was going through his ‘we want’ rant, there should have been a 'we want to throw another useless acronym into the alphabet soup that is American horse racing’
2:1 is going to pay 2:1 regardless if takeout is 0% vs 99%. I’m sorry that you make bad bets and can’t beat the mutuel pools.
I’m still waiting for an acknowledgment from one of these organizations that the purpose of takeout is to maximize the amount taken from a pool without seeing diminishing returns. Reducing takeout isn’t going to change the price of a horse going off at 2:1, it’s going to have the effect of negatively impacting racing’s invested customers
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Can YOU beat the current mutuel pools? And if you can't, then...how do you know that the onerous takeout isn't what's preventing you from doing so?
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12-03-2020, 10:51 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster
2:1 is going to pay 2:1 regardless if takeout is 0% vs 99%. I’m sorry that you make bad bets and can’t beat the mutuel pools.
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Not sure if your using hyperbole or just bad at math.
That's like saying if the Federal Govt tax rate is 0% or 99%, a $100 check is still going to be a $100 check !
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12-04-2020, 02:12 AM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porchy44
Not sure if your using hyperbole or just bad at math.
That's like saying if the Federal Govt tax rate is 0% or 99%, a $100 check is still going to be a $100 check !
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$100 is $100
But that’s not what we are getting at here. If a favorite has an efficient rate of 2:1, that’s what it’s going to be bet to unless you’re betting into an inefficient pool at some state fair meet with a WPS pool of $10k. Your smart players (where the bulk of the money comes in from) aren’t going to bet it down to 9:5 because the takeout is lower and they certainly won’t pay more than 2:1 due to a lower takeout
If bettors wanted prices to rise, they’d advocate to get ADWs out of the game. They’re creating a channel for a select group of players to bet at underlay prices that get them to an efficient price via the rebate
In reference to whether I beat the mutuel prices, yes, but I’m selective on what I bet. That doesn’t mean that I don’t bet, that means I’ll sit a race or 20 out if I don’t find a legitimate overlay. I won’t cry about a steward’s decision and most importantly, I will hit an overlay hard enough at a distance and surface that I know produces for me. I’ve spent weekends at AP waiting for the overlay I’m looking for, I guess that’s a comment on the role racing secretaries across the country play in producing prices. The only state imo that consistently produces overlays in the country is the Maryland Jockey Club, and that’s only because most bettors don’t read the race description to see how a higher class horse can be entered. It’s also because there aren’t too many of us that can translate video images into unstructured data into a PP with accurate run ups, fractions, and then build machine learning algorithms on top of it
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12-04-2020, 03:39 AM
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#10
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PA Steward
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 88,543
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Tweet doesn't exist anymore?
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12-04-2020, 07:27 AM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
Tweet doesn't exist anymore?
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Looking into it. Have a feeling industry politics has something to do with it. Hope I'm wrong
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12-04-2020, 07:49 AM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
Looking into it. Have a feeling industry politics has something to do with it. Hope I'm wrong
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I was right. Video going back up after Bill passes I'm told.
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12-06-2020, 11:55 AM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
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