Michael Dickinson on Zenyatta..

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by miesque

I don't think what you quoted was exactly what was being referred to

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...r-w-va-classic

A Huevo, a 9-year-old gelding owned by Mark Hopkins and winner of the 2003 Frank J. De Francis Memorial Dash (gr. I) was euthanized after being pulled up soon after the start and vanned off following the West Virginia Breeders' Classic Stakes the evening of Oct. 8. The son of Cool Joe had been the 1-2 favorite in the nine-furlong race at Charles Town Races and Slots

His start in this year's West Virginia Breeders' Classic came after more than a 10-month layoff. He had not started since finishing 11th in the Fred Hooper Handicap (gr. III) at Calder last Dec. 18.

Oh,well name me a trainer who hasn't had a breakdown in their career. I mean it happens to everyone. We are going to pull one horse out and use it against him? How can anyone question this guys training career and his talent?

[Tom]

He has an opinion and a butt. I don't really care about either.
I see him as a snake oil salesman for the garbage he is selling.

[miesque]

Originally Posted by tzipi

Oh,well name me a trainer who hasn't had a breakdown in their career. I mean it happens to everyone. We are going to pull one horse out and use it against him? How can anyone question this guys training career and his talent?

I am not questioning his training talent, I was clarifying a prior post. However, I would ask that you take a closer look at exactly what I was highlighting and think about why I was doing so. Breakdowns do occur even to the best of trainers, but that said, I think if you do not pay attention to the past performances and more importantly the breaks, especially the severe breaks, in past performances line, then you may be glossing over some pertinent information.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by miesque

I am not questioning his training talent, I was clarifying a prior post. However, I would ask that you take a closer look at exactly what I was highlighting and think about why I was doing so. Breakdowns do occur even to the best of trainers, but that said, I think if you do not pay attention to the past performances and more importantly the breaks, especially the severe breaks, in past performances line, then you may be glossing over some pertinent information.

No I understand but mentioning a breakdown in a discussion about someone training talent kinda caught me off guard then. Only because what trainer has never had one? I understand breaks in running too and I do pay attention to breaks in the PP's. Now he always had more because he would rest horses and lay up horses after races because they were worn or there was a small problem. He was always a good horsemen.

There's a ton of horses with very few breaks in their PP's,not because they are healthy and fine and better horsemen but because their connections do not care and just want some kind of money rolling in. You can tell because these horses finish up the track race after race without a break or a very short one. Or stakes horses who are tired but constantly run just so they can get that occasional 3rd,4th or 5th money. Scotty Schulhoffer was a great horsemen and many of his horses had alot of breaks in their PP's. He didn't run tired horses or horses with an ailment.

There was one trainer in NY years back who was known to keep horses running with no rests at all. People wondered his magic. His magic was standing his horses in ice buckets 30 or more min before a race and then putting on iced down front wraps in the paddock. Those horses futures weren't bright.

[miesque]

Originally Posted by tzipi

No I understand but mentioning a breakdown in a discussion about someone training talent kinda caught me off guard then. Only because what trainer has never had one? I understand breaks in running too and I do pay attention to breaks in the PP's. Now he always had more because he would rest horses and lay up horses after races because they were worn or there was a small problem. He was always a good horsemen.

There's a ton of horses with very few breaks in their PP's,not because they are healthy and fine and better horsemen but because their connections do not care and just want some kind of money rolling in. You can tell because these horses finish up the track race after race without a break or a very short one. Or stakes horses who are tired but constantly run just so they can get that occasional 3rd,4th or 5th money. Scotty Schulhoffer was a great horsemen and many of his horses had alot of breaks in their PP's. He didn't run tired horses or horses with an ailment.

There was one trainer in NY years back who was known to keep horses running with no rests at all. People wondered his magic. His magic was standing his horses in ice buckets 30 or more min before a race and then putting on iced down front wraps in the paddock. Those horses futures weren't bright.

Again, I was not the one who made the post. I will simply comment what I comment in all these situations, both in racing, finance and life in general. Sometimes when you are aggressive and stick your neck out and push the envelope, you are hailed as brilliant and perhaps a hero because you were successful. However, if you fail, because you did not follow the conventional route you may well wind up the asshole in a particular situation, even if that was not your intent. Thats the cruel way life works.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by miesque

Again, I was not the one who made the post. I will simply comment what I comment in all these situations, both in racing, finance and life in general. Sometimes when you are aggressive and stick your neck out and push the envelope, you are hailed as brilliant and perhaps a hero because you were successful. However, if you fail, because you did not follow the conventional route you may well wind up the asshole in a particular situation, even if that was not your intent. Thats the cruel way life works.

No I agree,you are def on the money there . I know you didn't make the post was just shocked someone thought he was a bad or maybe average trainer. The guy was one of the great horsemen in racing I think.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You seem to just gloss over this VERY important little set of words in your initial post.

I think most people would agree that prior to the BC, Zenyatta had beaten little in her four trips to the plate in 2009.

So why would his words shock you, given the fact that they were made pre-BC?

Good Catch, i hadn't noticed that in reading the OP

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You seem to just gloss over this VERY important little set of words in your initial post.

I think most people would agree that prior to the BC, Zenyatta had beaten little in her four trips to the plate in 2009.

So why would his words shock you, given the fact that they were made pre-BC?

Man,I feel like I have to answer to you about everyother post

I was shocked Pace because he was saying overrated so much when talking about Zenyatta. He trained her mother and he's saying,"She's the most overrated THING" What's that mean? The most overrated THING in racing,in sports? Seems very harsh from him. I was also shocked at that statement,especially since he's connected to her in a way. I don't care what people thought of her before BC,I know what they thought. I was shocked as HIS take on her for reasons I just mentioned. Is it ok that I have an opinion about his comments on Zenyatta?

You really think his comments have changed big time POST BC because of her win over that field?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by tzipi

Man,I feel like I have to answer to you about every post I make. I don't get it

I was shocked PACE because he was saying overrated so much when talking about Zenyatta. He trained her mother and he's saying,"She's the most overrated THING" What's that mean? The most overrated thing in racing,in sports? Seems very harsh from him. I was also shocked at that statement,especially since he's connected to her in a way. I don't care what people thought of her before BC,i know what they thought. I was shocked as HIS take on her for reasons I just mentioned. Is it ok Pace,that I have an opinion about his comments on Zenyatta?

Is it ok that I comment on my own message board? Yeah, I think it is...thank you.

Now, back to the issue at hand (and why you are taking the fact that I reply to your threads personally is beyond me).

So he trained her mother...big deal...doesn't change the fact that Zenyatta's camp took the easy way out at every opportunity in 2009 (minus the BC Classic). That's what Dickinson was commenting on...you said so yourself...you said these comments were made before the BC Classic.

Nothing about this should be shocking.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Is it ok that I comment on my own message board? Yeah, I think it is...thank you.

Now, back to the issue at hand (and why you are taking the fact that I reply to your threads personally is beyond me).

So he trained her mother...big deal...doesn't change the fact that Zenyatta's camp took the easy way out at every opportunity in 2009 (minus the BC Classic). That's what Dickinson was commenting on...you said so yourself...you said these comments were made before the BC Classic.

Nothing about this should be shocking.

Yeah couple posts you were all over me the past month,but whatever,I was laughing,not mad.

Anyway Pace,it's when you start pointing out why I'd be so shocked. Should I check with you after every article I read to see if my feelings about it are ok?
I never said she didn't have an easy campaign! I never said Zenyatta was the greatest. I WAS shocked at his harsh comments about the horse. Again really don't think his opinion changed much after that BC win over that field IMO. You think he was blown away? If Yes you do,ok.

"Big deal he trained her mother" Sorry Pace,again I know you have worked in every part of the buisness and know alot I guess. Just in my small journeys in the buisness,I have noticed listening to trainers,that alot do follow and care about good horses that came from their big horses they trained but mostly when it's a mare because they only produce a few foals that run.

Again,I was shocked at his "Most overrated thing" comment. Sorry I had that feeling when reading it. I'vealso met Dickinson and it doesn't seem like something he'd say,which added to it. Ok,end of story.

[magwell]

Yes Dickinson is a great race horse trainer nobody can deny that, but I think he was way out of line with the "overrated" statement. I doubt he would stand by that now since she won the big one against the men.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by magwell

Yes Dickinson is a greatrace horse trainer nobody can deny that, but I think he was way out of line with the "overrated" statement. I doubt he would stand by that now since she won the big one against the men.

That's just what I meant. Reading it I was a bit shocked and also had that same thought of it being out of line,especially because it's him. Not sure how he felt about BC win or about field(Not greatest BC field IMO),but in all honesty it couldn't have hurt his opinion of her. It was against a totally different field and honestly a better field than she was beating up on before.

[DanG]

It’s fascinating that when Dickinson says something that supports someone’s argument his integrity is never questioned. When he promoted his ‘Tapeta’ surface the infamous “conflict of interest” phrase was used and far worse.

Ironically; it turns out his Tapeta surface is performing tremendously and his opinion on the mare is off base imo.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by DanG

It’s fascinating that when Dickinson says something that supports someone’s argument his integrity is never questioned. When he promoted his ‘Tapeta’ surface the infamous “conflict of interest” phrase was used and far worse.

Ironically; it turns out his Tapeta surface is performing tremendously and his opinion on the mare is off base imo.

Happy New Year Dan.

As I've said before I'd give it to Rachel by a neck but I would have liked to see them share the award. Calling Zenyatta overrated is off base at first glance but when you look at the public opinion polls maybe not. In my opinion any poll that is more than 5 points off is overrating one and underrating the other.
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This comment from John Pricci: http://www.horseraceinsider.com/

"But the margin of 56% to 30% (14% voting for a co-championship) is, given any objective standard, well, laughable".
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There is no question that the "surface thing", the "owner thing", and the "trainer thing" have played a role in shaping opinions on who they like best. Particularly the "surface thing".

And getting back to the "surface thing" the Triple Crown races and the Breeders' Cup are lessened in my opinion because of synthetic surfaces. This year the "surface thing" ruined HOY. In my opinion Zenyatta and Rachel would have faced each other at least once had these surfaces stayed at minor league tracks like Golden Gate and Presque Isle where they always belonged. But that's just me along with a majority of Horseplayers talking.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by andymays

As I've said before I'd give it to Rachel by a neck but I would have liked to see them share the award. Calling Zenyatta overrated is off base at first glance but when you look at the public opinion polls maybe not. In my opinion any poll that is more than 5 points off is overrating one and underrating the other.

I would give it to Rachel as well, and by a wider margin then most. That is no knock on Z of course; but the filly was just that exceptional imo.

As far as ‘public opinion pools go…I’m the wrong one to comment; I’ll never equate consumption with validation concerning almost anything. I don’t purchase the #1 selling music, wine, hamburger or purchase socks by the gross at Wall Mart.

There is no question that the "surface thing", the "owner thing", and the "trainer thing" have played a role in shaping opinions on who they like best. Particularly the "surface thing".

No doubt; but don’t underestimate the ‘regional thing. Read some of the Rachel comments pre-Mother Goose when she torched 2 opponents. “Dubious” was thrown around like a NY subway token.

And getting back to the "surface thing" the Triple Crown races and the Breeders' Cup are lessened in my opinion because of synthetic surfaces. This year the "surface thing" ruined HOY. In my opinion Zenyatta and Rachel would have faced each other at least once had these surfaces stayed at minor league tracks like Golden Gate and Presque Isle where they always belonged. But that's just me along with a majority of Horseplayers talking.

I never knew that was your stance on surface Andy. Just kidding; again; I don’t subscribe to anything just because the majority gathers. Enjoy your New Year!