How Racetracks could increase on track attendance

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Indulto

May you be among the beneficiaries should your masters ever finally decide to gesture hypnotically and beckon their well-behaved brethren into boycott. At least then you’ll receive special training in the only weapon the horseplayer has.

Hmmmm....me think Indulto no likey HANA too much...(scratch underarms now).

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I am glad that you posted this.

Having been treated to a "change in the guards" at a local track from having a General Manager that literally treated his customers as degenerate douchebags to a new GM that DOES take the time to mingle, buy drinks for patrons on the fly, and shake a lot of hands - I can unequivocally state that you are flat out, right on the money in your stance.

The attitude from everyone in the plant, from horsemen to patrons to employees, changed within two weeks of uprooting the former management and installing the new faces. It didn't fix racing's problems, but solved one of them very easily.

Anyone in a management position should take this post by Stillriledup VERY seriously, shove the cavalier attitude, or find a different line of work.

Thanks for the compliments.

I know how racetrackers think, i'm one of them, i know many of them and i've seen how people i don't know act in certain situations and i know for a fact that people wanted to be treated like VIPs. Whether or not a customer IS a VIP is not the point. The point is that people wanted to feel special. It actually, last time i checked, doesn't cost the track one red cent to shake a hand or say thank you.

The one thing that i'll never get is that i know how much passion i have for this game and i know that if i was a GM of a track i would be walking the facility and trying to get to know every customer. Every one of them. All you guys who go to your local track on a regular basis see the same faces over and over again. You know who the 'regulars' are, which is most of them. The same 50 guys are there every day. It wouldn't take much effort for the GM to find a way to introduce himself, shake a hand and say thank you for your business we really appreciate it. Stuff like that feels good. I know, a lot of you will say "but the takeout is still high, who cares if you get your hand shaken if they are still taking 20% out of bets?"

I know, the takeout is one of many problems racing faces, but we need to start somewhere. We need to start making people feel wanted. After all, we're asking them to give the racetrack 200k for every million dollars they wager, horseplayers lose hundreds of thousands per day at every track they visit (major tracks) and can't even get a thank you or a 50 cent cup of coffee for free.

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Hmmmm....me think Indulto no likey HANA too much...(scratch underarms now).

Are you supposed to be imitating Tonto or toetoe? If the latter, you need better material.

Whassamatter, PA? You want I should pledge allegiance with every post? ****POST EDITED: POLITICAL TALK RESTRICTED TO THE OFF-TOPIC SECTION ONLY...AS I'M SURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE, MR. INDULTO****

What piqued your interest here, anyway? Has the HANA board become another of your sacred cows like tlg that you feel the need to protect from those they don't impress?

[jballscalls]

some good posts on here, and some pretty bad ones as well. The posts about GM"s out and about and improving customer service is truly important. At PM we have improved our on track handle each year and we have gone from running on weekends to weekdays only. how was it done? i'll give you a clue, TAKEOUT was the same, never changed. Field sizes are about the same as they were. so what got people to come out, bet, and come back on a regular basis??

We got a GM that changed how everything was done. We put a couple million dollars into remodeling the main floor, added flat screens, cleaner/nicer carrells, and started having guest floor managers/hosts out there, who along with the GM and all of our other staff, got to know our customers, give them free coffee, bought VEST kiosk machines where people can buy DRF or programs for EVERY track that we take, and improved the quality of our food. Started giving away cash and vouchers on a regular basis via our Beat the Announcer promotions and many other ones.

We also started focusing on our simulcast bettors, who just like Philly, Beulah and most tracks, represents a HUUUUUGE majority of our bettors. we changed our race days to mon/tue/wed to improve our national visibility. Made our graphics better, email free picks to simo bettors who want them.

So business has been up, each year for the last three years. even in this down economy. Racing has so many things that we need to work on, it's crazy. Most People don't care about racing, and to be honest, there are many reasons for them not to care about racing because we haven't given them a ton of reasons to come back over the years. we as tracks need to do things better.

A huge majority of players have no idea nor care about Takeout, it's increase or reduction or whatever. Would lower takeout keep players in the game longer?? of course it would. Would it increase the interest and amount of players who would start playing horse racing? personally, i dont think it would make a big difference. It certainly wouldnt triple handle like Andymays said. People have gotten so ADD, that young people want 4 tables of online poker action going, not 30 minutes between live races or even to put in the effort to learn the game that certainly takes years to even get remotely decent at. I'd love to see what a serious takeout reduction does do for the track/s that do it. it didn't do anything at the laurel meet a few years back, but that was only 10 days. Hopefully a track, state commission, and horseman can all agree to try it some time.

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of people who are on this board or are serious fans/handicappers were introduced to this game at a young age by a father, mother or grandparent who got them into the game, live racing, at a young age. That is when new fans and players are created.

Keep up the discourse, and hopefully everyone can pick some winners in the new year.

If anyone from Hana can email me their studies about takeout reduction and it's effect i'd love to see them.

jballscalls@aol.com

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Indulto

What piqued your interest here, anyway? Has the HANA board become another of your sacred cows like tlg that you feel the need to protect from those they don't impress?

Now now Mr. Indulto...don't turn into a 100% prick. I can't handle 100%...50% is good enough for me...

TLG has been maligned plenty around here, and you know it. As has HANA. Would you like me to call up a few of the juicier posts to jog your selective memory? Setting the record straight does not equal protection. It equals fairness. And I KNOW you're all about the fairness...I have read all of your rebate rants.

I will tell you what does have me piqued...your disingenuous nature.

[DanG]

As long as in home wagering is possible with wagering incentives I can’t envision a scenario where tracks can come close to duplicating the experience.

Do I miss the sounds, smells, rush and interaction of live racing…yes, yes and YES. I feel fortunate to have experienced live racing for decades, but the current in home ability to completely control the experience is something live racing can’t realistically duplicate imo.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

jballcalls, how much was PM up in live handle, how much were you up in simulcast handle at the track? And what does PM do in live handle a day?

Giving away cash vouchers is equal to lowering takeout.

When you say handle was improved, was it improved more off track, because it is a no brainer that smaller venues don't compete well on the weekend and do better racing weekdays when there is less competition. Fort Erie does half a million on Sundays but does 8 or 900,000 on Mondays and Tuesdays. If they were to switch Sundays to Wednesdays they could increase handle by 17% but they would lose a day that could promote future growth (Sundays, when small owners and patrons are more apt to bring newbies to the track who don't bet that much to begin with if at all). And they wouldn't have to spend 2 million dollars to achieve that 17% increase, and again most of that increase would be by online players.

I don't know how much reading you actually do here, but I've said repeatedly that most people don't care about takeout but everyone's betting habits are affected by takeout. This is why slots has an average takeout of 8%, not 16%. The slot operators make more money at 8% in the long run...and it is no secret that slot players have next to no clue about take out.

As for Laurel's experiment, it is very hard to increase handle when Youbet and HPI in Canada didn't take the signal but took it the year before. Also the meet was way too short, and the extra money won by bettors most likely got bet off at other venues because the meet was so short.

As for studies, because no track has actually gone ahead and lowered takeout for a significant time other than Tampa Bay (where results speak for themselves) it is very difficult to give you data on horse racing.

What we've seen in the last year and a half though has been takeout increases at Calder, Pimlico, Laurel, Aqueduct, Saratoga, and Belmont, and what we've seen this year (a year where racing is down 9%) is that 5 of those 6 tracks are down double the average, only Saratoga did better (down only around 4%).

Tracks that lowered takeout? Woodbine lowered their triactor takeout in a small way, and they were up 6% (but there were many other reasons why).
Tampa Bay was up over 10% on opening day...now they just announced the new takeout reduction so it has more to do with them being fan friendly and the public being more aware about takeout now more than ever before.

As for studies, read the Cummings Report for starters: http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resource...ort7-17-04.PDF

[Robert Goren]

Call me crazy, but I do think that a person will not bet on a horse race on the internet until he has at least bet on one at a simulcast site, maybe even live.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Call me crazy, but I do think that a person will not bet on a horse race on the internet until he has at least bet on one at a simulcast site, maybe even live.

I think that is mostly true. But then again, I'm pretty sure Betfair has quite a few people who bet on horse racing who have never bet live or at a simulcast.

But generally you are right, newbies need to be exposed to the live product first before they start keyboard betting.

[jballscalls]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

jballcalls, how much was PM up in live handle, how much were you up in simulcast handle at the track? And what does PM do in live handle a day?

Giving away cash vouchers is equal to lowering takeout.

When you say handle was improved, was it improved more off track, because it is a no brainer that smaller venues don't compete well on the weekend and do better racing weekdays when there is less competition. Fort Erie does half a million on Sundays but does 8 or 900,000 on Mondays and Tuesdays. If they were to switch Sundays to Wednesdays they could increase handle by 17% but they would lose a day that could promote future growth (Sundays, when small owners and patrons are more apt to bring newbies to the track who don't bet that much to begin with if at all). And they wouldn't have to spend 2 million dollars to achieve that 17% increase, and again most of that increase would be by online players.

I don't know how much reading you actually do here, but I've said repeatedly that most people don't care about takeout but everyone's betting habits are affected by takeout. This is why slots has an average takeout of 8%, not 16%. The slot operators make more money at 8% in the long run...and it is no secret that slot players have next to no clue about take out.

As for Laurel's experiment, it is very hard to increase handle when Youbet and HPI in Canada didn't take the signal but took it the year before. Also the meet was way too short, and the extra money won by bettors most likely got bet off at other venues because the meet was so short.

As for studies, because no track has actually gone ahead and lowered takeout for a significant time other than Tampa Bay (where results speak for themselves) it is very difficult to give you data on horse racing.

What we've seen in the last year and a half though has been takeout increases at Calder, Pimlico, Laurel, Aqueduct, Saratoga, and Belmont, and what we've seen this year (a year where racing is down 9%) is that 5 of those 6 tracks are down double the average, only Saratoga did better (down only around 4%).

Tracks that lowered takeout? Woodbine lowered their triactor takeout in a small way, and they were up 6% (but there were many other reasons why).
Tampa Bay was up over 10% on opening day...now they just announced the new takeout reduction so it has more to do with them being fan friendly and the public being more aware about takeout now more than ever before.

As for studies, read the Cummings Report for starters: http://www.nationalhbpa.com/resource...ort7-17-04.PDF

thanks for the link!! I dont have all the numbers here as i'm home for the holidays, can look them all up when i get back to PDX.

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Now now Mr. Indulto...don't turn into a 100% prick. I can't handle 100%...50% is good enough for me...

TLG has been maligned plenty around here, and you know it. As has HANA. Would you like me to call up a few of the juicier posts to jog your selective memory? Setting the record straight does not equal protection. It equals fairness. And I KNOW you're all about the fairness...I have read all of your rebate rants.

I will tell you what does have me piqued...your disingenuous nature.

What does it tell you when the keeper of the TOS is the first in an exchange to degenerate into name-calling? Taking things a little too personally, boss? I guess your underarms must be pretty sore by now.

How much latitude do I have in responding to your character assassination, great arbiter of fairness, without having my posting privileges revoked? I admit to a healthy cynicism, but don't confuse sarcasm with disingenuousness.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Indulto

What does it tell you when the keeper of the TOS is the first in an exchange to degenerate into name-calling? Taking things a little too personally, boss? I guess your underarms must be pretty sore by now.

How much latitude do I have in responding to your character assassination, great arbiter of fairness, without having my posting privileges revoked? I admit to a healthy cynicism, but don't confuse sarcasm with disingenuousness.

You lose all respect from me AND all courtesies when you deliberately disregard the TOS by injecting completely unrelated politics into a horse racing post AND ON TOP OF THAT, you invoke your favorite non sequitur, TLG, which turns out to be even MORE "out of left field" than the Obama comment.

After those two lame "gotcha" maneuvers, we have nothing further to discuss.

[GARY Z]

at least in NY the solution appears simple:

Have the standardbreds run in the afternoon, the thoroughbreds at night
except Sunday.

After all, aside from retirees and those able to sneak a few hours away,
under the present scenario,
night time racing would certainly draw larger crowds provided there
were fewer days(or races) in an effort to promote larger fields,and
the icing on the cake would be a lower takeout.


Add a racino, and finally fix or close the Big A and renovate Belmont and an exciting atmosphere would evolve. Yonkers raceway
should serve as model for this thought.

Then again, based upon the recent Daily News article, this wish
list may never occur as Belmont could evaporate prior to
June based upon the current financial crisis created by
NY state.

[bisket]

the most basic thing racing has to do is hold their races in the evening. thats the biggest impediment to the game becoming more popular. currently they race when 90% of the public can't participate. its a wonder the situation isn't as bad as it could be.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by bisket

the most basic thing racing has to do is hold their races in the evening. thats the biggest impediment to the game becoming more popular. currently they race when 90% of the public can't participate. its a wonder the situation isn't as bad as it could be.

Hasn't really helped harness racing's fate much.