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07-26-2014, 07:00 PM
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#13381
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 7,706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Billnewman
Correct me if I'm wrong but if man didn't disobey God there wouldn't have been a salvation plan. Man was already saved and would have had eternal life in the flesh. So Gods salvation plan was completely dependent on mans decision. Which was decided with mans free will.
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I would put it as, "If man hadn't disobeyed God, there wouldn't have been a need for a salvation plan." Nevertheless, that plan was still in place from eternity past in the foreknowledge of God, although that foreknowledge did not compromise man's free will or excuse man's disobedience. To me, saying that God's plan of salvation was completely dependent on man's decision would imply that God was somehow "taken by surprise" by man's disobedience, which would suggest that God is less than omniscient. (Please feel free to comment/clarify if I have misinterpreted or read too much into your post.)
Last edited by Overlay; 07-26-2014 at 07:06 PM.
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07-26-2014, 07:52 PM
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#13382
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Actor
I don't blame God for the ills of the world. I simply point out that the assumption that (1)God exists and (2)God is benevolent leads to logical contradictions. Ergo, either (A)God does not exist or (B)God is malevolent.
Put it another way. The whole Garden of Eden story is just plain silly. It has all the qualities of a fairy tale meant for children. The same goes for the story of the flood and the entire book of Genesis. If Genesis is true then God is the source of all evil.
The good news is that there is absolutely no evidence that the omnipotent psychopath exists.
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No it does not. Because God is also holy and righteous. God's love is moral in nature. If God is holy and righteous then his judgments (justice) must be righteous. Love and righteousness are not contradictory attributes or virtues. Quite the contrary. They complement one another.
In fact, this can be seen at the Cross of Christ whereby God poured out his wrath upon his righteous Son so that he could pay the sin debt of the sinners that that God loved in eternity past. Without his righteous justice being satisfied, God would not have been able to save so much as one soul.
Love and Justice met at the Cross of Christ.
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 07:55 PM
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#13383
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Actor
Gray hair and wrinkles. That's your definition of "juvenile".
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No, that's yours. You fit mine infinitely better. But if it helps any, I do have compassion on the poor mirror that must look at your mug. 
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 08:01 PM
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#13384
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thaskalos
So, the Christians of your congregation must REJOICE when their little children suffer untimely deaths...right? Or is all this just "talk"?
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Of course not! The loss of all loved ones brings sorrow. But at the same time, Christians are like king David who knew that one day he would be united with the son God took from him as punishment for David's great sins. David actually did take comfort in his infant's death. Read the account in the OT.
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 08:03 PM
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#13385
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thaskalos
I think he is wondering how anyone could believe that a benevolent God DOES exist...given all the ills of this world. If he indeed is the final authority...then how could he avoid blame for all of this?
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Because it wasn't God who disobeyed?
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 08:15 PM
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#13386
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thaskalos
Whether God interferes in our earthly affairs or not is open to question...and it depends on how literally we take the events of the bible. I know that you don't take the bible as literally as Boxcar does...but Boxcar too says that man has "free will" to do as he pleases -- even though the bible states otherwise.
Doesn't the bible state that God "hardened" the Pharaoh's heart in order to insure that he would not comply with Moses' request that he free the Israelites? I know that we have talked about this before...and Boxcar has chimed in saying that what is meant by "hardening the Pharaoh's heart" is that God withheld his grace from the Pharaoh -- which he had every right to do. But this is just Boxcar's apologetic bullshit, and it's not supported in the least by the Christian text that he so relies on. Where does Boxcar get the idea that "hardening" someone's heart means "withholding God's grace"?
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I get the "idea" from scripture. God sustains this entire world by his grace (power). Man is saved entirely by grace. Man can only respond to the gospel by God's grace. Man's faith is a gracious gift of God, as is repentance etc., etc. So, since man is saved entirely by God's grace,then it follows logically that those who never respond positively to the gospel were not granted saving grace. God withheld his grace from such.
Matt 13:11
11 And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
NASB
And....
Matt 11:25-27
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes. 26 "Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing in Thy sight.
NASB
Conversely, I would remind you how the Father dealt with Peter his chosen vessel:
Matt 16:15-17
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NASB
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 08:19 PM
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#13387
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fast4522
Freewill and a beautiful thing called a mind, to suggest God intended a penalty for bad choices others make is ridiculous.
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Governments impose penalties when citizens make bad choices. That, too, is "ridiculous"?
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-26-2014, 08:24 PM
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#13388
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Billnewman
Correct me if I'm wrong but if man didn't disobey God there wouldn't have been a salvation plan. Man was already saved and would have had eternal life in the flesh. So Gods salvation plan was completely dependent on mans decision. Which was decided with mans free will.
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Why would Adam and Eve require salvation before they sinned? From what did they need to be saved?
God's will is not contingent at all on man's choices. God works all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).
Boxcar
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
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07-28-2014, 02:46 AM
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#13389
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Light
I don't see God withholding food from those that need it.
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__________________
Sapere aude
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07-28-2014, 02:47 AM
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#13390
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Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boxcar
Why would Adam and Eve require salvation before they sinned? From what did they need to be saved?
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Religion! 
__________________
Sapere aude
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07-28-2014, 03:12 AM
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#13391
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,989
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Overlay
To me, saying that God's plan of salvation was completely dependent on man's decision would imply that God was somehow "taken by surprise" by man's disobedience, which would suggest that God is less than omniscient.
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Why would an omniscient god need to warn his creation to not eat the fruit?
__________________
All I needed in life I learned from Gary Larson.
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07-28-2014, 05:08 AM
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#13392
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 7,706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TJDave
Why would an omniscient god need to warn his creation to not eat the fruit?
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Because (as God indicated to man) there would be adverse consequences attached to the decision to eat. God had foreknowledge of what man would do, and had prepared a plan of salvation prior to any action taken by man, but man also had a free-will choice in the matter, and God would not have had to implement that plan or impose the consequences of disobedience if man had obeyed him and not eaten. The warning was for man's benefit.
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07-28-2014, 05:31 AM
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#13393
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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The version of God, both you and boxcar present is that of a 8 year old child playing with his pets injuring them to see if they can still complete obstacle courses with broken legs and poor vision.
Sure, this child has given them natural healing powers and eventually their legs will function, and eyes will see, but if the 8 year old child already knows this what exactly is the point?
Any adult watching this will realize this child needs to grow up fast
__________________
The inmates have taken over the asylum. 
Last edited by hcap; 07-28-2014 at 05:35 AM.
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07-28-2014, 05:43 AM
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#13394
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,398
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boxcar
I get the "idea" from scripture. God sustains this entire world by his grace (power). Man is saved entirely by grace. Man can only respond to the gospel by God's grace. Man's faith is a gracious gift of God, as is repentance etc., etc. So, since man is saved entirely by God's grace,then it follows logically that those who never respond positively to the gospel were not granted saving grace. God withheld his grace from such.
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A word of advice, do not use the word "logically" in any of your posts
__________________
The inmates have taken over the asylum.
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07-28-2014, 09:44 AM
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#13395
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,989
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An all-knowing god
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Overlay
but man also had a free-will choice in the matter, and God would not have had to implement that plan or impose the consequences of disobedience if man had obeyed him and not eaten. The warning was for man's benefit.
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Omniscience means God has foreknowledge of man's thoughts and actions. God knew man would disobey his commandments.
__________________
All I needed in life I learned from Gary Larson.
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