That didn't take long....

[Tom]

Chamver of Commerce - read: Big Busniness - working secretly with Ted Kennedy to write an amnesty bill that would allow ALL illegals to stay here.

Only special stake holders are allowed to meet withth e big head - no citizens, so guess that tells you what the dem think about the people. Not even two months already they have SOLDOUT.

Remember the LAST amnesty progeram dems passed - total disastor that paved the way to today's mess.


I guess it is time to bring the troops home, because a nation run by dems is not worth fighting for.

Sec, your guys are getting ready to abort America. Partial birth.

[OTM Al]

Of course we should remember that first major amnesty over illegal immegrants in the Massachusetts area. One of the first things those people did was steal from the real Americans. Several cases of murder occured as well in later days and the Americans often tried to use those illegals to their own benefit over rival groups. Guess it all turned out ok though. Everybody's read about them in the history books. Even got themselves a holiday.....

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Of course we should remember that first major amnesty over illegal immegrants in the Massachusetts area. One of the first things those people did was steal from the real Americans. Several cases of murder occured as well in later days and the Americans often tried to use those illegals to their own benefit over rival groups. Guess it all turned out ok though. Everybody's read about them in the history books. Even got themselves a holiday.....

give me a break...............

[OTM Al]

No, I won't. Everything in that statement is true. Something else I know is true is that the anti-immigrant rhetoric being spewed today is the same language the Ku Klux Klan used in the 1920s to pump their membership to all time highs. The target then? Irish and Italian immigrants. They sure ruined our economy. If illegal immigration is so bad why aren't we building a wall between us and Canada too? Good number of illegals come from there as well. I'm just saying its time to cut the crap and call this what it is. You afraid the little brown man is going to despoil all the white women then just say it. This is America and we are allowed to express our opinions.

[chickenhead]

you don't think there is any difference between legal and illegal immigration Al?

you don't think a country should control the number of immigrants it takes in?

you don't think a country should have any standards as to who it takes in?

can you name me another 1st world country that chooses to have uncontrolled immigration?

I find your point of view baffling.

[Tom]

Al, your allegations are empty - I WELCOME legal immigration.

I also advocate a closed border with Canada. And passports.

You think it fair to suddenly add 20+ million people to start collectin SS benefits after contributing noting? You think it a good idea to grant citizenship to people with no effective background checks?

How is this fair to those who are trying come here legally? Why should I pay for these people who come here illegally?

You racist allegatis are a pretty lame argument and show a total uderstanding of the situation. A typical liberal reply when they have no facts to back up anything.

Frankly, coming from you, a poster I normally respect, this is very much unlike your usual intelligent commentary.

We should reward those who have no respect for our laws?????
Should we also show compassion to those who rob liquor stores if they are poor? Those who rob grocery stores is they need to feed thier kids?

[OTM Al]

I think they are going to come whether we call it legal or illegal. They always have. The thing that makes them illegal is that they weren't able to make it into some arbitarily set quota and didn't have the money to grease their way around the rules. Ask the Chinese about American immigration quotas. No one chooses uncontrolled immigration, but everyone that is a so called 1st world country these days is facing it.

What I am talking about here is the growing villification of these people. To hear some people speak, they are the cause of the vast majority of crime. They are the cause of coming econimc collapse. We can blame them for whatever because they can't defend themselves. Hell, they aren't even human. The fact is that they are here and we will waste more effort and resources trying to run them out that trying to assimilate them. I'd much rather have them legalized and paying taxes and paying into Social Security and such than be wasting tax dollars by building walls.

[chickenhead]

you are an economist? U of Chicago?

You are basically saying that borders should no longer exist, and have no meaning. I we told the world "everyone in the pool", if we made immigration frictionless, we would very quickly become a third world country, and stay that way. Or maybe another question for you would be:

At what number do you think it would be a problem, if not 10-20 million? 50 million? 100 million? How many, in your opinion, is too many?

[chickenhead]

Al proffers up "Ask the Chinese about American Immigration quotas"

Do you think the Chinese would have any problem offering up 100 million immigrants? They would have no problem at all. Neither would India. Do you have any doubt that they would, if we removed our quotas completely?

It is impossible to assimilate those sorts of numbers.

I agree with you, let's fix the quotas. Let's have a rational immigration policy. But I don't think people who advocate what you advocate realise how absolutely radical your position is.

[OTM Al]

Tom, at least your position on this matter is consistent. I don't agree, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions as am I. I honestly do feel much of this rhetoric is strictly racist. Doesn't mean I'm calling you one, but I would be careful of who you are aligning yourself with on this one.

Guess I blew up at it because out my window yesterday I got to hear the protests against the dumbasses of the NYU College Republican Club who had decided to have a "Find the Illegal Immigrant" game. The university administration, much to their credit, allowed this event to go forward, saying all voices should be heard here. I'm not sure what this game consisted of but I do know these geniuses had signs showing running Mexicans on them which seems to be the only element of illegal immigration anyone seems to focus on. Not illegal Canadians, Australians or Irish (I've known people of those later groups btw). I guess white people are fine to come here, but definitely not brown. They ruin real estate values you know....

Funniest part about the whole thing was there was some idiot Chinese kid there to play the game talking about how proud he was his parents were legal, though he sure had no idea what to say when someone asked him about the Chinese Exclusion Act which sure made it so his greatgrandparents would not have been welcomed here legally. Had to love the first line in the Daily News story about them...."Maybe they should have stuck to beer pong."

I do think we should be concerned about illegal immigration. Just don't think the solution is building an armed fortress. I think we should also be concerned with the tone of the rhetoric that is going on about it and what the real agendas are.

[Tom]

I would guess the real culprits in this whole mess are white people - employers who put thier damned dollar ahead of our security and economy.
I firmly beleive any business couaght hiring illegals shouldlead to forfeture fo the assests, jail for the owners/board memebers, CEO, whatever.

As far a villification goes, I think the marches of illegals telling us what they were going to do justifies it. If they want war, I am willing to give it to them. I advoxcate a full real war with mexico - a far greater threat than Iraq. And I am not kidding. We need regime change and btw, they gots oil, too!

[JustRalph]

Al, you really think I am racist huh? Interesting.

Let me just say that you are mixing races on this issue and it does mean something. You can't speak about other nations and be talking about the same problem. The fact that we share a border with Mexico makes it completely different.

Tom stole much of my thunder on this issue. He is right.

30 thousand Americans are killed in the U.S. by illegal aliens each year. These deaths range from Traffic incidents to Drug Murders. Over 80 percent of these individuals who make bond never return for court.

If we categorized them as an invading force that killed 30k Americans each year, it would make the Iraq war numbers look like baby shit. And people scream about about the Iraq numbers. I just don't see that big a difference in the two types of deaths. They are just as dead as those killed in Iraq.

I heard a guy on a radio show the other day. He is from Denmark. He is 4 years into a 7-8 year process of becoming a citizen the legal way. He says he has spent over 25k to become legal so far. Amnesty is just crazy. It betrays every person who has obeyed the law over the last 40 years.

Btw, don't confuse "Racism" and equal protection and treatment under the law. One group equals "all groups" Stopping the Amnesty program for Mexicans, stops it for all. The equal protection argument is part of the constitution. If Mexican illegals are given amnesty, then every person already on the soil will have to be included............. this isn't just about Mexicans and certain races. It is about every race. You open the door, you open it to all............and the common border gives the Mexican immigrant an advantage over others. But the others will be included. They have to be. Either by the original program or court actions after.

[OTM Al]

Ralph, just as with Tom, I'm not calling you a racist. I don't know you so any judgement like that by me would be stupid to say the least. I am however standing by my statement that many of those in this debate on the anti-illegal side are.

Just two comments about what you have said. 30,000 American deaths a year? Not sure I buy that, but would be willing to read your source.

Second, the Danish guy has spent 25K to become a citizen? He still has 4 years to go? Last time I checked there is no reason to be spending that kind of money unless you are hiring lawyers to help you circumvent certain parts of the process. Something sounds very wrong here. Had a friend who was Australian that wanted to get a green card and had been in contact with a lawyer that was only going to jack him 5k to get him to the head of the line. Of course you can enter the lottery for what I am sure is a minimal filing fee and just hope you don't get ripped off.

[OTM Al]

Just FYI I was having a look at the INS site to see just what it costs to get oneself naturalized. Best I can figure it costs about $800 if you follow all the rules and don't need any exceptions. That's about $400 to get permanent resident status and $400 more for naturalization about 5 years later. You can pay a whole lot more if you want to get exceptions for things such as leaving the country for extended times and such. Of course the forms look a bit complicated, so I'm sure hiring a lawyer to help out isn't a bad idea for these folks so might as well throw a couple more grand on the pile. All and all not that much, at least to a middle class white guy, though it may be a bit more dear for someone trying to get out of some 3rd world piss hole. Interesting stuff.

[Tom]

So the question now becomes, with all these forms, lawyers, yadda yadda yadda, and TWO amnesty programs under our belts, why would ANYONE bother to go through channels anymore - why not just walk over and by-pass all that?

The big lie ( well, one of the big lies) Mr Bush keeps telling us is that we need a guest worker program. Hey, Georgie - we got one - and legal ways to come here, too. Problem is, the morons running this country (YOU, Georgie, you sick twisted freak) are too stupid to run the programs.


BTW, are the dems willing to ensure ALL of the 20+ million new citizens will make minimum wage, no exceptions? Of course not! The dems, in spite of all thier whinning, are BOUGHT and PAID for and in the pockets of big business - as deep as the repubs are.

The Chamber of Commerce is writing this bill, with Teddy.

Stick a fork in us, we are done.
High time for a civil war of our own - this time, no prisoners.