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Old 09-20-2018, 12:06 PM   #8476
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So you want me to cover space and time as well? OK. First of all time does not exist. Not going to explain that here.

Second of all space is not empty. Ask any astrophysicist. And yes God would be what the matter that can't be seen in "empty space" is.



Of course God cannot be measured. But an energy in question CAN be measured. And that energy comes from God and is part of God.

You need to understand that God is not confined to an anthropomorphic being. He is multitasking , multidimensional and formless.



I never said that. But I said he incarnates which you seem to agree with me at the end of your last quote citing Jesus as an incarnation of God.



You misquote me. I said God's essence is Divine love. But that he incarnates as the universe, in the flesh, or whatever he wants.



You cannot have an eternal God in a time bound universe. It would not contain him.



I am not saying the universe is God by itself. That was Paganism. I am saying that everything that has been made by God has God's intrinsic energy within it. Just like we have a soul which is God within us and is part of God.
So you are unique, heh? You are not time-bound.

God does not incarnate the universe because that would at once make him mutable and immutable, which is an absurd contradiction. God, as the Logos, would violate his own laws of logic, which he also created.

When you say that God IS Energy, you are making a statement about his nature (essence). Since God cannot be measured, then he cannot possible BE Energy that is measurable. This would be another contradiction.

Also, Energy could not exist apart from Space and Motion. This is why you cannot logically or even scientifically isolate energy from the rest of the fundamental elements that comprise the basic structure of the universe. Energy requires Space and Motion. And wherever there is Motion, there is Time, for time is nothing less than the progressive succession of motion. Buy a sundial someday and check it out. Watch the days and nights fly by.

Also, without Matter occupying Space, Space would be very empty and imperceptible. Matter actually defines Space, just like furniture in an empty room defines the room. The only way we CAN know Space exists is due to the existence of Matter in all its three components (Motion, Energy and Phenomena). In other words, Matter is to Space what Christ is to God. Jesus in the flesh reveals God the Father to us, likewise, Matter reveals Space to us.

Also, if God is mutable then there is no guarantee that he can't change his essence. God could cease loving and feeling nothing toward his imagers or even hate them.

In short, to borrow Paul's analogy, the Potter (God) who creates the pot (let's say the universe) is not the pot. Also the real world doesn't work that way (temporal reality as we all know it). A builder who builds a house is not the house nor is the house the builder. An artist who creates a painting is not the painting and the painting isn't the artist.

Finally, God cannot possibly be the universe because the universe cannot contain him (1Ki 8:27; 2Chron 2:6; 6:18). Yes, it could contain the idol of your god that you have erected inside your head, but it cannot contain the God of divine revelation. So, your god is not only impotent (since it's beyond him to give true understanding of his revelation to people, according to you) but he's also very small, since he's only the size of the universe.

As stated on previous occasions, the otherness of God is beyond human comprehension; but here you are trying to play the genie by sticking God inside a bottle and calling him/it the bottle (i.e. the universe).

And just as aside, since I brought up idols: If God is all and all is God, then why is idolatry forbidden everywhere in the bible? Why does God expressively forbid the making of anything in any image, and worshiping it? If God is a chiseled stone or carved wood idol, then what is the big deal?

Finally, I never cited Jesus as AN incarnation. Jesus is THE incarnation of God. As in the one and only. And I explained how this was possible without violating any of God's created laws of logic.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:31 PM   #8477
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Running out of fingers or brain cells?
I said there were no match between the historical and archaeological evidence and the supernatural events in the bible. Religion like influenza can catch on, and be spread by word of mouth. Like a hit TV quiz show. Or breakfast cereal.

However if yo really want to know, not that it will mean anything to you, when the "esoteric" center of humanity casts out a "net", their message is carefully formulated to impinge on humanity, and current cultures of the time. Of course the initial energy soon becomes distorted and corrupted by people like you confusing the inner meanings for those fictional events that are often used to point inward.

Their major tools are stirring and dramatic moving themes. Themes that reach the inner conscience and resonate within some. Same "energy" happens in the beginning of most major religions. There need not be any real events. Ideas can work wonders whether fiction or non fiction, but more so if common truths are somewhat awoken in people.

Bye bye bunky, the rest of your babbling are to dumb to respond to.

And please don't ask me about my children or try to interject your absurd reverse time theories.
Non sequitur. I'm not interested in hearing about your antisupernatural bias. I specifically want to know how the Jewish religious establishment could have possibly allowed the fake news of all the events surrounding Jesus' Passion to get out of control to their own personal detriment, specifically, and to the detriment of Judaism, generally. And even more so since the fake news would have been absolutely revolting and repulsive to them, since the Jesus sect was preaching a crucified Messiah! One would reasonably think that the great, smart intellects in the Jewish Sanhedrin wold have had their printing presses running overtime to refute that fake news. They would have been busily pointing out to the Jewish masses how the fake news didn't square at all with the sacred Hebrew scriptures (OT). After all, Jewish scribes certainly had the wherewithal to know how to make thousands of copies of NT manuscripts! Yet, we don't find so much as one ancient Jewish rebuttal or refutation to the fake news of the unlearned, uneducated, unrefined Jesus sect? Seriously? They just let this rag-tag bunch of Jesus freaks steam-roll over the leadership and dupe the unwary masses?
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Old 09-20-2018, 03:56 PM   #8478
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So you are unique, heh? You are not time-bound.
That's right. My soul is eternal.

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God does not incarnate the universe because that would at once make him mutable and immutable, which is an absurd contradiction. God, as the Logos, would violate his own laws of logic, which he also created.
Your rules, not God's.

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When you say that God IS Energy, you are making a statement about his nature (essence).
I told you several times his essence is Divine love, which is a form of energy.

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Since God cannot be measured, then he cannot possible BE Energy that is measurable. This would be another contradiction.
No one is measuring God's energy FYI.

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Also, Energy could not exist apart from Space and Motion. This is why you cannot logically or even scientifically isolate energy from the rest of the fundamental elements that comprise the basic structure of the universe. Energy requires Space and Motion. And wherever there is Motion, there is Time, for time is nothing less than the progressive succession of motion. Buy a sundial someday and check it out. Watch the days and nights fly by.
Point being?

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Also, without Matter occupying Space, Space would be very empty and imperceptible. Matter actually defines Space, just like furniture in an empty room defines the room. The only way we CAN know Space exists is due to the existence of Matter in all its three components (Motion, Energy and Phenomena). In other words, Matter is to Space what Christ is to God. Jesus in the flesh reveals God the Father to us, likewise, Matter reveals Space to us.
Point being?

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Also, if God is mutable then there is no guarantee that he can't change his essence. God could cease loving and feeling nothing toward his imagers or even hate them.
Poor analysis.

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In short, to borrow Paul's analogy, the Potter (God) who creates the pot (let's say the universe) is not the pot. Also the real world doesn't work that way (temporal reality as we all know it). A builder who builds a house is not the house nor is the house the builder. An artist who creates a painting is not the painting and the painting isn't the artist.
Poor analogy. God is none of that.

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Finally, God cannot possibly be the universe because the universe cannot contain him (1Ki 8:27; 2Chron 2:6; 6:18). Yes, it could contain the idol of your god that you have erected inside your head, but it cannot contain the God of divine revelation. So, your god is not only impotent (since it's beyond him to give true understanding of his revelation to people, according to you) but he's also very small, since he's only the size of the universe.
I already agreed that the finite cannot contain the infinite. It does not mean the infinite cannot create and be part of the finite. You may remember my use of the term multidimensional as an attribute of God.

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As stated on previous occasions, the otherness of God is beyond human comprehension; but here you are trying to play the genie by sticking God inside a bottle and calling him/it the bottle (i.e. the universe).
God is ALL which means beyond your poor interpretations of the Bible.

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And just as aside, since I brought up idols: If God is all and all is God, then why is idolatry forbidden everywhere in the bible? Why does God expressively forbid the making of anything in any image, and worshiping it? If God is a chiseled stone or carved wood idol, then what is the big deal?
I don't worship idols. And I don't worship the universe as God. I already told you that is paganism. I worship, or more correctly I aspire to be one with God who dwells within me. At the same time I am aware that God is in all things and in all people and that is why all things and people should be respected. Otherwise you disrespect God, indirectly.


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Finally, I never cited Jesus as AN incarnation. Jesus is THE incarnation of God. As in the one and only. And I explained how this was possible without violating any of God's created laws of logic.
I only agree that Jesus is/was an incarnation of God. You can have your laws. God is not bound by any "laws".
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:32 PM   #8479
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God is not bound by any "laws".
I guess not.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:54 PM   #8480
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That's right. My soul is eternal.



Your rules, not God's.



I told you several times his essence is Divine love, which is a form of energy.


No one is measuring God's energy FYI.



Point being?



Point being?



Poor analysis.



Poor analogy. God is none of that.



I already agreed that the finite cannot contain the infinite. It does not mean the infinite cannot create and be part of the finite. You may remember my use of the term multidimensional as an attribute of God.



God is ALL which means beyond your poor interpretations of the Bible.



I don't worship idols. And I don't worship the universe as God. I already told you that is paganism. I worship, or more correctly I aspire to be one with God who dwells within me. At the same time I am aware that God is in all things and in all people and that is why all things and people should be respected. Otherwise you disrespect God, indirectly.


I only agree that Jesus is/was an incarnation of God. You can have your laws. God is not bound by any "laws".
You're equivocating. You can't say in one breath that God IS the universe and the universe IS God, and then in the next tell me that God is only a part of the universe -- like a a wheel is only part of a car. If a wheel is only part of a car, then it is NOT the car!

And since the basic structure of the universe is Space, Matter and Time, then you can't say that the finite universe can contain the infinite God.

Plus you cannot attempt to say that the God contains the universe, because as stated previously we'd have a situation whereby this universe/god of yours would have had to existed and not existed at the same time and in the same sense (Law of Noncontradiction) in order to create itself/himself. This, of course, is absurd. (But then again, you did admit once that no one ever taught you how to think because that would mean that you already don't know.)

Then of course, we have the immutability problem since immutability IS an attribute of God and is NOT an attribute of the universe, since the universe is always in a state of change or flux. Again, a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction and the Law of Identity. A can only be A; A cannot be non-A.

Of course, God is bound by laws. This is why Jesus was sent into the world. He was sent to undo the lawlessness of Adam and the nation of Israel [b]by keeping his own Father's Law, since Adam broke God's commandment in the Garden and Israel broke God's Mosaic Covenant, i.e. the Law of Moses. God, in other words, is bound by his NATURE. Again, the Law of Identity kicks in. Since God, in his nature, is holy and righteous, then he cannot act contrary to his nature.

But if you insist that God is not bound by laws, then he doesn't have to love anyone. He is free to love or not love. Since you dismiss the Law of Identity, then God is not bound by his nature to love, since he can act contrary to his nature. In your loony world, A can indeed BE non-A.

Then we have the problem of Jesus' teaching that God is spirit and that NO ONE has seen God at any time, save for the Son. Yet, if God IS the universe, and the universe is God, then each of us sees God every single day since the universe is filled with Matter.

You have become entangled in your web of deceit which you have been spinning the last few days.

P.S. Oh...and the Potter-Pot analogy thingy -- that is a biblical analogy See Romans 9. And Paul borrowed that from the OT to boot.

In Paul's use, God is the Potter (Creator) and the Pot is a human imager whom God has created.
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Last edited by boxcar; 09-20-2018 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:59 PM   #8481
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Quick question, what are the Four Great Forces of The Universe?

A trick question, so be careful.
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:11 PM   #8482
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Quick question, what are the Four Great Forces of The Universe?

A trick question, so be careful.
Really?

Would you believe Father, Son, Holy Ghost...and lil' ol' me?
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:14 PM   #8483
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You misunderstand the meaning of the trick.

There is only one.

And it's not you.

Cheers.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:42 PM   #8484
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Quick question, what are the Four Great Forces of The Universe?
Electric, gravity, strong, weak.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:47 PM   #8485
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You can't say in one breath that God IS the universe and the universe IS God, and then in the next tell me that God is only a part of the universe --
Every set is a subset of itself. Mathematical fact.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:53 AM   #8486
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You're equivocating. You can't say in one breath that God IS the universe and the universe IS God, and then in the next tell me that God is only a part of the universe -- like a a wheel is only part of a car. If a wheel is only part of a car, then it is NOT the car!
I never said God is only part of the universe. I said God is ALL of the universe and multidimensional.

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And since the basic structure of the universe is Space, Matter and Time, then you can't say that the finite universe can contain the infinite God.
That is only if there is only one finite universe at God's disposal which is false. I made the point that an infinite God can be ALL of any number of finite multiverses and then some because he is multidimensional.

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Plus you cannot attempt to say that the God contains the universe, because as stated previously we'd have a situation whereby this universe/god of yours would have had to existed and not existed at the same time and in the same sense (Law of Noncontradiction) in order to create itself/himself. This, of course, is absurd. (But then again, you did admit once that no one ever taught you how to think because that would mean that you already don't know.)
I don't think even you know what you are saying here^^^

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Then of course, we have the immutability problem since immutability IS an attribute of God and is NOT an attribute of the universe, since the universe is always in a state of change or flux. Again, a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction and the Law of Identity. A can only be A; A cannot be non-A.
You obviously don't understand what I said several times before on this subject so pay attention.

I said ALL things are IMPREGNATED OR INTRINSIC of God. Just like we are with a soul. The essence of us or of the things does NOT change but returns to it's source, after death, which is God.

Before that, while the person or object is alive, what is changing is the objects or people who are IMPREGNATED with God. Not the essence of the person or object which is God. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO STATES OF EXISTENCE.

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Of course, God is bound by laws. This is why Jesus was sent into the world. He was sent to undo the lawlessness of Adam and the nation of Israel [b]by keeping his own Father's Law, since Adam broke God's commandment in the Garden and Israel broke God's Mosaic Covenant, i.e. the Law of Moses. God, in other words, is bound by his NATURE. Again, the Law of Identity kicks in. Since God, in his nature, is holy and righteous, then he cannot act contrary to his nature.
You cannot have laws governing God or else the laws are now bigger than God and that would negate God as the supreme authority. It would mean the Laws are God and God is a servant to the Laws.

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But if you insist that God is not bound by laws, then he doesn't have to love anyone. He is free to love or not love. Since you dismiss the Law of Identity, then God is not bound by his nature to love, since he can act contrary to his nature. In your loony world, A can indeed BE non-A.
True love is not coerced. If God needs to be bound by a law to love us then he doesn't love us. Fortunately my God loves me without a law telling him what to do. You need to find a better lover.


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Then we have the problem of Jesus' teaching that God is spirit and that NO ONE has seen God at any time, save for the Son. Yet, if God IS the universe, and the universe is God, then each of us sees God every single day since the universe is filled with Matter.
Again I answered this twice already. Do you even read what I write? But once again for the illiterate.

We who are part of the universe are IMPREGNATED with God via a soul. The universe is alive as well and is also impregnated with God. You cannot see your soul and you cannot see the soul of the universe. So there is nothing to see. Only your awareness can "see" it.


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You have become entangled in your web of deceit which you have been spinning the last few days.
I would suggest you first try to understand what I am saying before judging it even if you disagree with it. If you understood my point, even if you disagreed, you would give a counter argument. But instead you show you have no idea how to read, because you repeat the same question over and over proving you do not read or don't comprehend.

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P.S. Oh...and the Potter-Pot analogy thingy -- that is a biblical analogy See Romans 9. And Paul borrowed that from the OT to boot.

In Paul's use, God is the Potter (Creator) and the Pot is a human imager whom God has created.
OK but God is not a potter.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:59 PM   #8487
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[quote=Light;2373182]I never said God is only part of the universe. I said God is ALL of the universe and multidimensional.
Quote:

But you did say that. Try to keep up with your own inane foolishness.

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Of course God cannot be measured. But an energy in question CAN be measured. And that energy comes from God and is part of God.
When you say your god is the universe and the universe is your god, you're saying that the universe and your god is one and the same. And, again, you can't equate the entire universe with just energy because energy cannot exist apart from Space and Motion. You never said that your god is the universe's energy, but rather that he/it/she IS the Universe.

That is only if there is only one finite universe at God's disposal which is false. I made the point that an infinite God can be ALL of any number of finite multiverses and then some because he is multidimensional.

I don't think even you know what you are saying here^^^

You obviously don't understand what I said several times before on this subject so pay attention.

I said ALL things are IMPREGNATED OR INTRINSIC of God. Just like we are with a soul. The essence of us or of the things does NOT change but returns to it's source, after death, which is God.

Before that, while the person or object is alive, what is changing is the objects or people who are IMPREGNATED with God. Not the essence of the person or object which is God. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO STATES OF EXISTENCE.

You cannot have laws governing God or else the laws are now bigger than God and that would negate God as the supreme authority. It would mean the Laws are God and God is a servant to the Laws.

True love is not coerced. If God needs to be bound by a law to love us then he doesn't love us. Fortunately my God loves me without a law telling him what to do. You need to find a better lover.

Again I answered this twice already. Do you even read what I write? But once again for the illiterate.

We who are part of the universe are IMPREGNATED with God via a soul. The universe is alive as well and is also impregnated with God. You cannot see your soul and you cannot see the soul of the universe. So there is nothing to see. Only your awareness can "see" it.

I would suggest you first try to understand what I am saying before judging it even if you disagree with it. If you understood my point, even if you disagreed, you would give a counter argument. But instead you show you have no idea how to read, because you repeat the same question over and over proving you do not read or don't comprehend.

OK but God is not a potter.
God is the Potter in the analogy. And there is a point -- a lesson to be learned from the analogy. The first lesson is that God ain't the Pot!

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
NASB

If God isn't the "potter" and man isn't the "pot", then who is the potter and who is pot?

But in pantheism, God would have to be the potter and the pot. And since the potter IS the pot (and in principle the universe would be the "pot in pantheism), then the potter (God would have to create himself. He would have to exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense, which is a violation of the Law of Noncontradiction.)

If there are no laws governing your god, then God can change and become anything. He would inherently have that potential. But God cannot have any potential! (See below for why.) Therefore, you can't logically or with an degree of certainty say that "God is love" and that he'll always be love. With no laws to govern God, God becomes no better than the Lawless One. God becomes the Sovereign Anarchist and the Cosmic Village Idiot!

Furthermore, you have once again shot yourself in the foot, for since God IS the universe and the universe IS God, then to deny that there are laws governing God is to also deny that there are laws governing the universe. In other words, even Natural Revelation tells us that laws are required to regulate and govern the functioning of the universe; for without those fixed laws in place, the universe would cease to exist. And then, of course, your god would cease to exist! So...in pantheism, to deny that laws govern its god is tantamount to saying that the universe isn't governed by laws.

The Law of Identity is precisely why all men cannot not sin, and why God cannot sin. The Law of Identity is precisely why no man is inherently righteous, but is why only God is righteous. The Law of Identity is why only God alone is good, and why all men are inherently evil, etc.

As far as love is concerned God MUST love because that is what he is in his essence. So, again, the Law of Identity assures everyone that God is a loving God. Of course, this doesn't mean that God must love everyone or everything. This doesn't mean that God created humans and angels as though he NEEDED objects of his love either. God needs nothing! God always had objects of love -- The eternal Father, the eternal Son and the eternal Holy Spirit each loving the other.

If we were to remove just these three foundational laws of logic from all discourse, i.e. the Laws of Identity, Noncontradiction and Excluded Middle, all rational, coherent and intelligible communication would be impossible. (And you have proved this very nicely, thank you!) If God is not governed by his own Laws, then he's an anarchist and a driveling idiot! And it's not the stupid question, as you have suggested, that this would make his laws "bigger than He is. Why? Because he is the Author of Laws just as he is the Author of Life. The laws actually define God and give him glory, since all true believers can know with certainty that God is indeed their Rock -- solid, immovable, unchangeable, eternally faithful. And to all true believers, they can take great comfort in this fact.

Furthermore, as far as terrestrial life on this planet goes, only human beings are created in God's image. This means that we, like the Creator, are rational, personal, moral beings and that his laws of logic apply to us and to him equally because these laws are what make both God and us rational beings.

And what would make you think that God's laws are coercive in nature? God created laws that are self-coercive? Really?

But thankfully, scripture teaches that God is immutable. God cannot change what he is which means he cannot inherently be the universe, since the universe is always changing and full of potential. God, on the other hand, has absolutely no potential.

And souls returning to God or not is a non sequitur. This has nothing to do with immutability. Human beings are mutable. We are subject to change by whim because this is our nature. The Law of Identity guarantees that we're mutable and always will be in this life. What you fail to understand is that the human ESSENCE makes us mutable, whereas the divine ESSENCE makes God immutable. And the two shall never meet! Not in this life! Even born again Christians (which you are not), indwelt by the Living Spirit of God, still change -- they change for the better or can even change for the worse at times. But since God only is perfect, then he cannot possibly change -- ever! For if he could change, it would mean a change for the better or for worse, and this would mean he wasn't perfect to begin with. This is why God can't have any potential, whereas the universe is filled with potential.

And people are "impregnated" with God? Impregnated with what!? How? And when?

And you cannot prove there are multiverses. This is only a theory, with which many scientists disagree.

And how can a pure spirit be multidimensional? Explain please.

And explain how a pure spirit naturally can be seen or sensed.

Luke 24:39-42
39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 [And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.] 41 And while they still could not believe it for joy and were marveling, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
NASB

You see, the resurrected Jesus was multidimensional. He not could not only eat solid food, but he still had the scars from the crucifixion in his new, glorified body. S

So, if a spirit does not consist of anything material and cannot be seen, how can God BE the universe and the universe BE God? How can a pure spirit have any dimensions at all?
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:27 PM   #8488
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Let's wind up the Jerusalem scene and see how the murder of Stephen, the first martyr of record in Acts, backfired on the Jewish religious leaders big time. Their stoning of Stephen actually advanced the cause of the gospel! This is another great example, in fact, of how God can take an evil act turn it into a good for his own glory.

We don't know a whole lot about Stephen except that he was a devout, God-fearing, Messiah-believing, Spirit-filled Jew who was held in high esteem by the people and the apostles. He was held in such high regard, he was actually one of the first deacons on record to be appointed by the Jerusalem congregation of disciples at the direction of the apostles, so that he could help serve hungry people, while the apostles continued to preach the gospel (Act 6:1-6).

But chapter 6 does go on to tell us that was full of grace and power and was performing "great signs and wonders" among the people, no doubt winning many of them over. And this greatly angered a certain sect of non-believing Jews. So, we'll pick up the story from this point.

Acts 6:8-15
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people. 9 But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen. 10 And yet they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God." 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and dragged him away, and brought him before the Council. 13 And they put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place, and the Law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us." 15 And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel.
NASB

The bold part is noteworthy because for the most part, these were the standard fare charges that would constantly be brought against Paul by the Jews after his conversion. They would tell kings, and governors and councils that Paul was a blasphemer, that he was anti-Jewish customs, anti-Jewish traditions, anti-Moses, anti-Law and most of that this Jessu sect preached that their temple would one day be destroyed, which of course Jesus did predict and that prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

So once again, the Sanhedrin is confronting another believer and man...did Stephen ever give them an earful! The sermon he preached is lengthy, taking up most of chapter 7. And the Word he preached cut them to the quick. In fact, his gospel/sermon is a great illustration of the truth taught in Heb 4:12, which reads:

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

They were so convicted by the truth that they couldn't bear listening to him any longer.

Acts 7:54-60
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58 And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep.
NASB

So, even in his death, Stephen was still full of grace, crying out to his Lord to forgive his murderers.

And part of the audience who watched this stoning and approved of it was none other than a guy named Saul, who later on becomes Paul after his conversion (8:1).

But Stephen's life, his witness, his testimony and all the signs and wonders he performed could not be allowed to stand. Stephen actually brought on a great persecution of the Jerusalem church.

Acts 8:2-3
2 And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. 3 But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.
NASB

So, now the gospel moved out from its epicenter in Jerusalem. The only recourse the non-believing Jews had was to arrest and/or kill their Jewish brethren who believed in the Messiah. They thought that persecuting the Jerusalem church would put an end to this blasphemous, heretical Jesus sect. But how wrong they were!

So, as a recap, numerous Hellenstic Jews were converted on the Day of Pentecost. And these Jews would eventually be the seed cells that would carry the gospel back to their homelands throughout Asia Minor.

After their conversion at least 5,000 men, alone, were converted and added to the Church. And then even more added to that number after all the apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin. And then finally, the gospel moved out of Jerusalem into Judea and Samaria in the wake of Stephen's martyrdom.

Because the Jewish religious establishment could not refute the gospel FACTS, since they had no physical body to produce to refute the resurrection of Jesus, and they could not refute the apostolic miracles that were performed in Jerusalem or refute Stephen's numerous "signs and wonders", they were left with no alternative but to turn against Christ's church in order to cut off the gospel message before it got out of control. But...it was already too late! There would be no stopping the Message of Life. Gamaliel's ironic prophecy came to pass. History bears out the truth that Jews found themselves fighting with God and, therefore, could not stop the spread of Christianity.

As Paul once wrote -- to paraphrase: "one man plants, another waters but God gives the increase" (1Cor 3:7). And that's exactly what happened from the Day of Pentecost.

This is the most reasonable, rational and straightforward way of understanding how the Gospel of Jesus Christ could have spread from Jerusalem so rapidly by a rag-tag bunch of unlearned, uneducated, uncultured Jesus believers throughout the Roman Empire. And once Saul converted and became Paul and he took his ministry primary to the Gentiles throughout Asia Minor, Spain and Rome itself, then the gospel really took off throughout the entire world.
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Old 10-12-2018, 12:59 PM   #8489
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Question: "Why does God allow natural disasters, i.e. earthquakes, hurricanes, and tsunamis?"

https://www.gotquestions.org/QOTW.htm

Just remember, skeptics: None of us are getting out of here alive, so at the end of the day, does it really matter how we leave this world?
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:26 PM   #8490
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I just received this intriguing e mail from a relative this morning.
He found it on Facebook.
I thought it might be of value in this thread.
****************************************
With what is going on in the world these days Heaven could end up a ghost town??

My name is God.

You hardly have time for me. I love you and will always bless you. I am always with you. I need you to spend 30 seconds of your time with Me today. Don't pray, just praise. Today, I want this message to go across the world before midnight. Will you help?

Please do not delete it and I'll help you with something that you are in need of. Just dare Me! A blessing is coming your way. Please drop everything & pass it on. Why are prayers getting smaller, but bars and clubs are expanding? Why is it so easy to worship a celebrity, but very difficult to engage with God? Think about it, are you going to forward this or are you going to ignore it because you think you will get laughed at? Please forward this to all your friends. 80%
of you won't. God said if you deny me in front of your friends, I will deny you on the Day of Judgment.

When one door closes, God opens two. If God has opened doors for you, send this message to everyone... Forward if God's been good to you! God has been very good to me; He has given me wonderful family, great friends, great health for the most of my life and so much
more!

THANK YOU LORD!
AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN
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